Graffiti

[Dorothy]

I've noticed graffiti about the place recently. Never seen it much in SE22 before. Bit sad about it, tbh.

[jimmyraj]

Looks like it's another product of reduced council spending - I've noticed more about recently. Make sure you report it on the council websiteand hopefully they will get to it in the medium term.

[James Barber]

Its partly the ending of the councils Community Wardens service in the Lordship Lane area - they report a lot of eco crime. I still report lots of stuff but a lot of area to cover!

If it bugs you please do become a Street Leader - voluntary role to give you an inside track on getting eco crime fixed.

[jctg]

How do you stop it in the first place though?

[James Barber]

Hi jctg,

The research shows not having it reduces the chance of getting it.

That if you get graffiti it needs to cleared REALLY quickly else it attracts more AND even more importantyl generates other crimes - broken window affect.

[TonyQuinn]

One man's (or woman's) graffiti is another one's art. I personally haven't seen much and really do like the bits I have seen, such as the mural on the corner of Goodrich and Barry.

[jctg]

TonyQuinn Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> One man's (or woman's) graffiti is another one's

> art.

Tagging, though, is simple criminal damage. And retarded.

[evelknievel]

I'm not getting into this again but there's as much evidence refuting the 'broken window effect' as there is in support of it. It's not scientific, it's a politically motivated selection of evidence to support a specific thesis. Not arguing that grafitti is good, or that it doesn't beget grafitti but it isn't proven that it represents some sort of inevitable collapse of general order.

[ianr]

> I'm not getting into this again but there's as much evidence refuting the 'broken window effect' as there is in support of it.

Any references please, hypothesis regardless?

[ultraburner]

A well painted piece can really lift an area. The mural outside Brockley station is a good example, and seems to keep taggers away. Or at least stops them tagging over it out of respect?

Tagging looks sh1t, always has done, always will. And as for scribing on bus/train windows, my god thats the lowest of the low. Would love for the perpetrators of that sort of kak to be made to PAY for replacing the windows which I'm sure arent cheap.

[skyblue]

I've noticed a lot of tagging too - on Sargent's butchers, by the Court Lane entrance to Dulwich park and on a couple of street boards - seems to be the same signature. I have mentioned it to the police who have said that the local safer teams are on to it. Looks like someone in particular wants to be noticed.

[Moos]

Does it say Copier Coller?

[Huguenot]

Copy & Paste? How terribly sophisticated! ;-)

[James Barber]

Hi EvilKneival,

Can you please point me at the contrary evidence to the Dutch study that proven the broken window and increased crime study.

[evelknievel]

As i said - i don't really want to get into this dicussion again because we went ove rall this before when discussing what to 'do' about the brick wall on North Cross Road - see forum thread from way back, on which I wrote

'...but since you asked, a quick google search reveals 'More Guns, Less Crime' Univ of Chicago Press, 2000. Which refutes the Broken Windows theory.'

We also discussed the difference between pure science and social science, of which both your 'broken windows' document and any that draws a different conclusion, is the latter. Incodentally the following is the response I received from a Criminologist friend when I mentioned the Broken Windows article.

"It?s possibly the most influential criminology article ever published, and it wasn?t even by a criminologist ? hilarious. It?s what?s called the ?common sense? criminology of the right. Policy friendly. James Q Wilson, adviser to Reagan and Bush senior (and perhaps also Dubbya). Source of zero tolerance policing? Very few studies have concluded empirically that minor ?incivilities?, if left unchecked, lead to more serious ?crimes?."

So please don't pass it off as fact. It's a theory.

[Brian Tee]

From my understanding of this, it was the Mayor Guilani of New York who took a zero tolerance, rapid response approach to criminal damage, on the basis that (as correctly posseted above), crimes like tagging will encourage more tagging, and the possibility of 'broken window/broken building/broken community' cascades.

He implemented the process with the massive cooperation of NYPD, and in a sense 'proved' that when rapid response and zero tolerance are implemented, the problem does not escalate, but will in reasonable time be reduced to a small group of hard core graffiti artists, who operate within a fairly strict code of conduct. ( respecting the graffiti of others, only 'tagging' on non-commercial/non-owned/non-private property).

Unfortunately the resurgence of 'old skool' hip-hop among teenage youth brings with it the resurgence of hip-hop gang-culture art. Schools are suffering with it, as the youngsters do not fully understand the 'code' that accompanies the action.

The police in Soutwark will deal with offenders who are caught, with Community Service and repeated 'Triage' interviews to encourage remorse, but, as we all know, kids will be kids.

Criminal damage it is - at least no-one gets hurt.

[Horsebox]

Brian Tee,

Can you please elaborate on the resurgence of 'old skool' hip-hop among teenage youth'?

I'm intrigued.

[James Barber]

Hi evilknieval,

I don't think you'll have noticed the attached which I've posted in the past which shows a clear experiment that gives results concuring with the 'broken windows' theory.

[DulwichFox]

The Kids that go round tagging other people's property.

How would they like having their property spray painted. ???

Like their Expensive Trainers.

[evelknievel]

That's entirely my point, that is an experiment that suggests a link, but there are others that suggest no link - and certainly not a simple one. You're talking about human social behaviour, there must be millions of factors contributing to that in any environment.

None of these can be shown to 'prove' anything, they just suggest. People, naturally, tend towards the evidence that supports their view or - in the case of this particular theory - justifies their policy. And anyway Social Science used to advance a particular political standpoint? There must be plenty of examples of that as well and not all of them very pretty. Can't be trusted.

Just to be clear though, I'm not disputing that a tag on a wall will probably encourage other taggers, it's a territorial thing after all (isn't it? I really don't know), but the link to a decline into more serious disorder or crime is too tenuous for me, or too convenient.

[James Barber]

Hi evelknievel,

The Dutch research appears exceptionally thorough. It was a piece of scientific research so can never prove something but the broken window theory is the most valid we currently have and the peer reviewed research supports this theory.

What alternate theory are you proposeing and what peer reveiwed research supports it?

[jimmyay]

i think everyone knows this isnt about graffiti art but horrible tagging and slogans - that's what people object to.

[jimmyay]

i think everyone knows this isnt about graffiti art but horrible tagging and slogans - that's what people object to.

[graywallpaper]

2 be honest m8 at the end of the day thiers' no diference between grafiti art nor tagging. 2 start with its' against the law. i seen some of this grafiti and i do'nt think picaso done it. LOL. :)) sooner these so call 'artists r court the better, what we need is bigger fines or ASBOs 4 these chav scum

[Jeremy]

graywallpaper = Ted Max