homeless man in wheelchair living outside harvester pub

[JoeLeg]

intexasatthe moment Wrote:

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>

> What on earth is the matter with you that you feel

> the need to persue someone with inane criticisms ?

Pot. Kettle. Etc...

[TE44]

Rendall,Why have you put up an unread private message again when itatm has asked you to leave her/him alone? I do not believe itatm has been aggressive, I'm curious to why you feel you should share this message when itatm does not want to read it. I also feel when posts are deleted, it is difficult to tell if people are responding, whether they read previous deleted post etc.

[rendelharris]

TE44 Wrote:

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> Rendall,Why have you put up an unread private

> message again when itatm has asked you to leave

> her/him alone? I do not believe itatm has been

> aggressive, I'm curious to why you feel you should

> share this message when itatm does not want to

> read it. I also feel when posts are deleted, it is

> difficult to tell if people are responding,

> whether they read previous deleted post etc.

Because I wished to make it clear that my message was not offensive or in some way out of order. You are entitled to your opinion as to ITATM's behaviour - personally I think starting a separate thread in the Lounge to "call me out" is somewhat aggressive.

[TE44]

Lilithangel, thanks for you informative post, you've answered a lot of questions I have wondered about. And I know for sure now who you are speaking about. Has anyone in contact asked him how he manages his basic care.

[TE44]

How would people feel if they were witness to Padraics way of life as a neighbour. Has he himself any solutions he just cant put into practice. What would be the outcome if people stopped helping, probably anything between him accepting help or dying. Would a chemical toilet help in a situation like this, I know it would take regular involvement, Ive no idea if any charity looks or acts on basic issues like this.

Edited to say, charities working directly on the street.q

[Administrator]

Please stop the personal spats that are encroaching on the forum.

[lilithangel]

I am witnessing it. I see it every day and no chemical toilet isnt the answer. In the last 24 hours this gentleman and a gang of his friends have been outside the pub drinking and swearing at passers by. They have scared children and I have just witnessed someone urinating up against the wall. Why should we have to see this and put up with this? I?m very sorry the gentleman had fallen on hard times, is disabled and isn?t getting help from the government or charities but when it isn?t safe to leave your own home, because of fear of abuse or fear of rats & mice or of fear of disease from people using the path as a toilet all my charity disappears. I spoke to the Salvation Army today and they have said he has abused 3 of their staff and police have told them not to approach him because when he drinks he can be violent. People are trying to help him get a better life but he?s refusing help. You can?t help those who won?t be helped.

[lavender27]

I was just wondering and forgive me if you find this offensive, or weird in a way, the gentleman has had his left leg blown off, I was wondering how everyone's left leg is who has added to this thread. Mine is feeling frozen, perhaps in sympathy for Podrick. (Ps. Please don't skim over my enquiry as usual).

[tomskip]

My left is feeling fine lavender27 and I am very grateful for that.

[TE44]

Lilithangel, Have you and your neighbours come together and tried to speak to anyone involved with padraic. Regardless of having a habit I feel by refusing help and knowing what you don't want, may bring a sense of freedom but that comes with a responsibility. Have the police ever been called over his behaviour. I mentioned the toilet as its a health hazard that could be removed, I wasn't suggesting it would solve the problem. Lilithangel has he not moved from the harvester, I take it security have moved.

Until padraic attempts to face his habit, it seems he may be warmer and a bit more comfortable but that will not protect him from his self. It's a nightmare having a neighbour who affects your life that you're worried to go out.

Lavender27 I have not felt anything out of the usual in my left leg.

[sweetgirl]

lavender27 Wrote:

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> I was just wondering and forgive me if you find

> this offensive, or weird in a way, the gentleman

> has had his left leg blown off, I was wondering

> how everyone's left leg is who has added to this

> thread. Mine is feeling frozen, perhaps in

> sympathy for Podrick. (Ps. Please don't skim over

> my enquiry as usual).

My leg seems fine too.

[lilithangel]

I have called the council, I called the police, I called the Salvation Army, I called the church and the local out reach programme. I even emailed our local MP 5 timed about helping this poor man and I was ignored. I gave him leaflets for drop in centres and told him that a local shelter had beds. Not sure what else?s I could do.

[TE44]

Lilithangel There's only so much people can do, you have done everything you can, thanks for giving people a chance to understand the situation from a day to day view.

[Blah Blah]

The harsh truth is that he is an alcoholic, and won't compromise that addiction for help from formal organisations. That makes helping him pretty much impossible until he changes his approach to that addiction.

[Robert Poste's Child]

That's the view that statutory services tend to take, but if the person's using alcohol to cope with their problems they need support to break the cycle somehow. It's horrifying to think of this man coping on his own at this time of year, even if he has refused help, as he's obviously very vulnerable.

[Blah Blah]

There is a difference between someone using alcohol as an escape (or as self medication) and alcoholism. The former can usually be treated if circumstances are changed, the latter often does not change irregardless of the circumstances.

[TE44]

Blah blah, I think most alcoholics use alcohol to self medicate/escape, im not sure you can seperate, circumstances that bring you to a level of self abuse often continue to grow with the habit, often making it more difficult to deal with as time goes on, regardless of other people making allowances for your habitual behaviour it will be down to the individual to face the damage which has often been done. With help and support and the strength to want change, treatment is a very individual thing and must come from a want to change.

[Robert Poste's Child]

Substance use is a broad spectrum, and at the soft end (for example half a bottle of wine when you get in from work every day) it's more straightforward to look at it as a behaviour and think about other options (such as go for a walk). If the person's using alcohol to manage hearing voices, psychosis or intrusive thoughts, it's much more complex and from a purely humane viewpoint I really think they need support with their mental health issues to be able to start managing the substance use - not forgetting that a very heavy drinker must cut down gradually as stopping suddenly has its own risks, and that needs monitoring by a doctor or nurse.

[Angelina]

It's difficult - he's refusing the structured help and support he needs and is putting himself in the situation people want to save him from. He doesn't actually want to be saved. It's just prolonging a situation which is only getting worse. His drinking is not going to get any better. As the weather improves it will become more bearable, but what about five winters from now?

It would be more helpful if everybody who gave him something told him he needed to accept the support that is offered to him. Maybe it will sink in.

It's unlikely he will stop drinking and set up a 'normal' life but it doesn't sound like this is heading in any positive direction at all.

[Robert Poste's Child]

Agree with you. Given the fires and behaviour lilithangel witnessed, it sounds like the police and/or local mental health team could potentially resort to a section, or more likely the threat of one to get him to accept help. It sounds like a long-term situation though so they may have tried this in the past, only to see him back on the streets afterwards.

[Penguin68]

'Sectioning' under the Mental Health Act is a way of forcibly committing a severely mentally ill person, normally at extreme and current risk of harming themselves or others and frequently in a state of fugue or huge distress. This man is (possibly) an alcoholic (possibly simply a heavy drinker) who has been clear in what help he wants and doesn't want. I find it completely wrong to use the threat of sectioning to force somebody whose life is less tidy than you would want to get off the streets. [And there is a huge backlog of those who are clear they do need psychiatric help and want to get it, waiting to be seen]. All I know about addiction makes it clear that only those who want to be clear of it will respond to treatment. Which this person clearly doesn't.

It's a mess certainly, but it's not one which threats of actual prison, or imprisonment by psychiatrists will go any way towards addressing. I suspect this is a problem which will not end well. Locking people away who won't conform to your norms is something done by totalitarian states. Even if you are doing it, in your view, 'for their own good'.

The law allows the mentally ill (which he may not be, just awkward) not to take medication (or follow medical regimes) prescribed for them, unless they have been sectioned. And considering the stresses on mental health services locally this should not be done just to tidy up the neighbourhood.

I refer you to the excellent film 'One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest' for a view on this.

[tomskip]

I don't think this man's story is that different to countless other rough sleepers. The fact he is disabled no doubt makes life harder for him, but otherwise he is like thousands of others who live outside the system because of their addictions. I hope Streetlink and other organisations will continue to talk to him and eventually persuade him into rehab. The Salvation Army (much as people like to mock them or be suspicious of them) are absolutely brilliant in this regard and it's such a shame he is on their doorstep and not letting them take care of him.

[Robert Poste's Child]

Penguin68, you seem to be making some rather judgmental assumptions about my views there. I think anything that would help him accept help would be more constructive than wringing hands and repeating 'it won't end well'.

Not sure how the reference to a film about MH in another country 40 years ago is helpful. No one's suggesting forced ECT or lobotomies. Though in the US he would be unlikely to be offered support with housing or treatment as he has no money or health insurance.

[Penguin68]

I think anything that would help him accept help would be more constructive than wringing hands and repeating 'it won't end well'.

Actually, what you were suggesting to 'help' him accept assistance was to threaten to have him locked up as a dangerous mental patient (the condition for a section, whether of danger to himself or others) - 'it sounds like the police and/or local mental health team could potentially resort to a section, or more likely the threat of one to get him to accept help' is what you wrote. As he doesn't accept assistance offered by those trained and funded to help people like him (should they want help) I cannot but think that threatening him is not a good option. I am not, by the way, wringing my hands, but simply making a prediction. I believe that people have a right to choose their own hells and routes to perdition (with the proviso that they shouldn't take others with them). I referred to the film as an example of 'help' being forced on individuals who don't fit into societal norms.

[Blah Blah]

But aggressively shouting drunken abuse at people at a bus stop IS impacting on others in a way that could be perceived as harmful. It is something he could be arrested for under several laws that relate to breach of the peace and intimidation, drunken behaviour etc.

Not all alcoholics can be helped with their addiction (true of any addiction), so the question always remains of what to do with those people. This is shaping the core of the discussion here.

One question that no-one seems to be asking, is how he gets access to alcohol? Who facilitates that?