Attack on Costcutter? (Lounged)

[Frisco]

"It is illegal to ride a bike on the pavement, but our police officers rarelhy prosecute. It is illegal to smoke dope in the street, but again, it has kind of become accepted in some parts. Please don't underestimate the sigificance of these infractions. I don't have children, but if I did, I would be very active in trying to make sure these 'little' lawss were adhered to."

However, the fact is that children and adults have always ridden bicycles on pavements (I'm not condoning it), although I'm not sure that adult cyclists have always jumped traffic red lights, and police have always used their discretion regarding prosecution, which is how it should be.

It's also a fact that there is more emphasis today on formally dealing with minor infractions that there ever seemed to be. However, it's even more of a fact that many of these minor infractions were previously regarded as childhood and adolescent mischief, which seems to be less tolerated now than it was in the past. What we seem to see now are demands for the criminalisation of childhood/adolescent mischief, without the people who do this realising that it inappropriately and unnecessarily clogs up the criminal justice system, and results in otherwise law abiding young people acquiring criminal records.

On the dope issue, I have mixed views on this, but I would rather that this was dealt with through dissuasion and education about the potential dangers of long-term use of cannabis, than automatic prosecution. Personally, I would rather that scarce enforcement and police resources were used to prevent people who used drugs and/or alcohol putting themselves in situations where they could harm themselves and others (e.g. driving).

[Nero]

Disagree Frisco. There is no need to run a zebra crossing. There is no need to ride a bike on a pavement. There is no need to run a red light. All three are potentially dangerous and should not be tolerated. See what I mean about 'allowing' infractions, with that 'oh, well, it's not as if it's murder or something'. People get killed, injured and disabled by cyclists, motorists, bike-riders doing illegal things. Nero

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

Boll@x, how many people have you ever heard of that got killed by a cyclist?

[Nero]

At least one, actually. It was in the paper the other day. Chav, it's illegal. Whether it is wrong or right is a different thing. It's effing annoying and often done in an aggressive way. What's your stance on running red lights and not stopping at zebras? Nero

[Spangles30]

The majority of young people are great. It's just a small minority that are 'lawless', and one should blame the parents. When I am driving (especially through Peckham) late at night I am stunned to see how many young kids are out on bikes at say 11PM.

One only has to see and hear what the local Kids Company charity does with young kids to know that some kids round here have a terrible family life. It is easy to close your eyes to what is going on when one sees the 'Dulwich Dads' and yummy mummy types traipsing up L.ship Lane.

[Nero]

Hmm, don't disparage the ones that are doing a decent job, parent wise. If the DDs and YMs are instilling good values and being as good a parent as they can when they're not traipsing up LL, then good for them. Nero

[Spangles30]

Who is 'disparaging' the DDs and YMs??? I am saying that not every kid has such a fortunate background as little 'Sam' and 'Isabella'. They are lucky that they have 'hands on ' parents. Many kids in the SE15 and SE22 areas are not so lucky, and are allowed to congregate in big groups, often late at night, which intimidates people.

Please do not misconstrue my points nero. Glad to have clarified that. Thank you.

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

I ride on the pavement, ride through red lights, carry my daughter on my bike rack, ride with my dogs on their leads, pull my new bike trailer behind my bike because my bike is my main form of transport. I have never ran into anyone and I slow down if I am on the pavement and people are walking. I also appologise and give way, as pedestrians should have priority if it is not a cycle lane.

I usually do most of my riding on the road, but if the road or junction is particularly dangerous or congested, I get on the pavement. Sitting in traffic is ok if you are in a covered vehicle, but you can get an injury if you are a cyclist and let your muscles cool down.

I go through red lights because I need to let the traffic behind me see me as I have been hit by cars turning left who did not notice I was there, or to avoid the dangerous dash through the lights that occurs as soon as the lights change to green.

I do not care that my actions are illegal, as I think it is more important that I stay alive as I have 4 kids and a granddaughter who would miss me if I got mown down by the nice people who become lunatic drivers as soon as they get behind a wheel.

[Brendan]

ChavWivaLawDegree Wrote:

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> Boll@x, how many people have you ever heard of

> that got killed by a cyclist?

A few years back I got hit by a cyclist who ran the red light at the pedestrian crossing outside Waterloo station. Didn?t kill me but it bloody hurt like fuck

[blinder999]

that's right, someone got killed by a lunatic riding at about 25mph on the pavement down a hill in Devon. Yes, it made the papers, because it's such a rare occurrence - and there's such a groundswell of anti-cyclist sentiment whipped up by the Jeremy Clarksons of this world, people love to hear their prejudices confirmed.

But one death out of over three thousand annual road deaths is hardly a significant number (18% of that 3000 killed were cyclists by the way).

Mind you, on the positive side, road deaths have been decreasing steadily since 1964 (when there were over 8000 road deaths):

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/images/charts/1208.gif

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=1208

[mockney piers]

It's a pretty staggering figure still when you stop to think about it. That's 10 a day!!!

It's surely time for something to be done about our reliance on the motor car.

If MRSA was killing in these sorts of numbers then you'd probably expect the prime minister to have to resign; staggers me how much we just accept this. I've lost several friends to traffic accidents and only one to drugs. Tell me which is the real public menace!!

ps you still shouldn't be cycling on the pavement, it's a bloody menace. Campaign for better cycle paths or getting rid of cars.

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

And in the meantime....

[Frisco]

Nero said: "Disagree Frisco. There is no need to run a zebra crossing."

I never said there was, as you will see if you carefully read what I wrote. As a motorist and occasional slow pedestrian, I abhor it.

However, setting aside jumping lights, I also abhor views that seem to treat all minor infractions, and what used to be considered as childhood and adolescent mischief as the ultimate in serious behaviour. This, together with a general intolerance for others who don't do things exactly as we'd like them to, is probably one of the reasons life has become so stressful. This also why we now seem to be living in a surveillance society, where real and habitual criminals will still know how to avoid being caught, but the cost of equipment will be justified by prosecuting minor transgressors.

It seems to me that some people may be happier living somewhere like Singapore rather than ED. I wouldn't.

[Nero]

Nope, been to Singapore, and it's too hot. I just like people who treat others well. If that means that they also obey laws then all the better. Civility is declining, and it is precisely that which makes like more stressful. Do you like it when you see people drop litter on the bus? When they instinctively put their shoes on the seats on trains or the bus? When they push in front of you because they can't be bothered to join the queue? Do you think that these things don't shriek of 'sod you, I don't care that others are around, I'm going to do as I please (maybe because I have little control over parts of my life so I rebel in this way)'? Those things stress me out much more than my job or foreign travel or being late for an appointment. I don't want to criminalise anyone, but I do want respect (and not the bling version of it, which translates to 'fear me, or I'll do you in') and common courtesy. Now, was that milk or lemon Mr/s Frisco? Nero

[Keef]

Huguenot might, ask him.

I for one couldn't stand the humidity. Oh, and Singapore Slings are wrong in many many ways!

[Asset]

children under the age of (I think 11) are allowed to cycle on pavements.

[Asset]

I cycle - I always stop at red lights and never cycle on the pavement.

[Frisco]

"Civility is declining, and it is precisely that which makes like more stressful."

If only it were as easy as that, you'd make a fortune. We live in more of a dog eat dog and individualist society now, which isn't the fault of young people or individuals. I'm pretty sure that had they been more prevalent 25 years ago, people would still have been talking loudly in inappropriate places on mobile phones. Older people have always thought that younger people are less civil, but some of the most uncivil people I deal with happen to be older and oblivious to their own incivility.

"Do you like it when you see people drop litter on the bus? When they instinctively put their shoes on the seats on trains or the bus? When they push in front of you because they can't be bothered to join the queue? Do you think that these things don't shriek of 'sod you, I don't care that others are around, I'm going to do as I please (maybe because I have little control over parts of my life so I rebel in this way)'? Those things stress me out much more than my job or foreign travel or being late for an appointment. I don't want to criminalise anyone, but I do want respect (and not the bling version of it, which translates to 'fear me, or I'll do you in') and common courtesy."

No, I don't 'like' these things, but they tend to make me go tsk than angrily shout. I don't want to see most of these things (which are more anti-social that criminal) heavy handedly controlled by the law and police. However, I do try to not get too worked up by these things as, like you, there's very little I can do about it, and I don't wish to be thought of an 'anal'.

If everyday things like this stress you out, it can be dangerous for people of a certain age, I'd be inclined to have a chat with my GP.

"Now, was that milk or lemon Mr/s Frisco?"

Neither, and just Frisco is fine thanks.

[MadWorld74]

ChavWivaLawDegree Wrote:

------------------------------------------------------

>

> The two Bulger murderers were only 11, and they

> got prosecuted. There are countless other crimes

> on record where the offender is only 11 or 12, so

> saying the youths will get away with a crime

> because of their age is factually incorrect.

CWALD....the two Bulger murderers DID get away with it though didn't they? Are they not protected with a lifetime's supply of anonymity. That is not God Damn prosecution in my books.

I have lived in ED just over a year. It may well be that the forum is spreading the news if crime more effectively that the local papers, but I am worried. Some on this forum have said to stop over reacting. When do I stop? When someone else gets coshed over the head on their way home from work?

[SeanMacGabhann]

Yep MW74 - they are living completely normal lives and haven't been incarcerated, lost their childhood or any chance of a normal life at all. No punishment at all - oh wait...

Obviously nightmareish what happened and in no way condoning it but kids are horrendously cruel - I can think of at least 3 occassions before I was 13 where something genuinely bad could have happened but for whatever reason didn't - every person involved has grown up to be a normal person leading a normal life. I'm not saying what happened with these 2 was tomfoolery gone bad... but to say they weren't punished??? hmmmm

As for where to stop worrying??? Start thinking more and using evidence to reassure you. Before this forum you were less worried but the same level of activity was going on. Where is worrying going to get you?

There does seem to be a particular gang at large at the moment but that is what happens from time to time. Worried? no. Worried about partner? No. Is she worried? No....

"the easiest way to keep people in line, is to scare the shit out of them" Cathal Coughlan 1991

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

Well what exactly is prosecution in your books if not, taking someone to court, getting them found guilty and having them locked up for a decade? What about hanging? Is that what you call prosecution?

[Frisco]

"CWALD....the two Bulger murderers DID get away with it though didn't they?"

Only in as far as society removed two children who had, through no fault of their own, been left to lead chaotic and dysfunctional lives, and now presumably society has two young people who are able to constructively lead almost normal lives (apart from the constant fear of being exposed).

In terms of worry and fear, when I think of the Bulger case the worries and fears I found myself having are more to do with the sight of an adult mob attacking the van in which the two young perpetrators were being transported to and from court, than any future danger from them. I also find myself worrying about what kind of punishment those people, and others who claim the two children weren't punished, would like to have seem happen to them.

However, that case was, thankfully, highly unusually unusual and isn't part of the daily experience, particularly not in ED.

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

In terms of worry and fear, when I think of the Bulger case the worries and fears I found myself having are more to do with the sight of an adult mob attacking the van in which the two young perpetrators were being transported to and from court, than any future danger from them. I also find myself worrying about what kind of punishment those people, and others who claim the two children weren't punished, would like to have seem happen to them.

Agree 100%, that said much more about our society than the fact that two boys from a troubled backgroung were capable of committing a horrible, random act. It made me feel very reassured to see a hundred baying adults turn up outside a court to lynch two 9yr old boys who hadn't even been found guilty of anything yet. Furthermore, I cannot understand why people feel that a violent act carried out by children is worse than one carried out by an adult. Children aren't always particularily pleasant to each other, and I'm just suprised that episodes such as the Bulger killing aren't more commonplace.

[Unkle_Paulie]

So Frisco... Am I correct in saying that the reason the children who have been dysfunctional, violent, aggressive and thuggish in east dulwich of late have done this at no fault of their own? That their lives are so chaotic that they have a compulsive desire to rob people of their ?100 Ipods, which apparently is the victims fault for falling foul of the commercial world we live in!

Could it not be, as already mentioned, that these kids are bored, have no parental support and think that they can 'get away with it'! In fact I wouldn't be surprised if their parents aren't kicking the kids out into the street or waiting round the corner for them to return with Ipods! Adults will certainly inform their children actions, so whether its an adult or a child being thuggish, either is unacceptable!

As a cyclist, anyone jumping lights, riding on the pavements, thank you for giving us cyclists who abide by the rules a bad reputation! I have been knocked off a few times, but that still does not give me the right to break the law!!

[Jessie]

I think it's a bit more complicated than that, Unkle_Paulie: yes, boredom, poverty, lack of responsible parenting most definitely come in to it. But also the negative effects of drink and drugs, the fact that children and teenagers can be impossibly cruel no matter their class or relative wealth. I'm not condoning these kids, or the crimes they commit. But I do think that they're a symptom of a wider malaise as opposed to a rogue brutish element which has nothing to do with their environment. If that makes any sense (it's been a long day...)