Denmark Hill station entrance shambles

[Applespider]

That?s great news. Is there anyway to ensure that it covers the peak problem period of 0815 to 0850? And equivalent evening peak?

If they do it mid morning, they may come away wondering what all the fuss is about!

[James Barber]

Hi goldilocks,

I will chase if I've not received the H&S in the next fortnight.

When I do get hold of it I will then ask for one covering Peckham Rye station.

Hi Applespider,

I described the morning and evening peak as being especially worrying.

[redjam]

Also they will get a different result if they carry out the survey over the Easter holidays, though presumably they are smart enough to figure this out for themselves :)

Thanks for organising this to happen, James.

[James Barber]

This is the update from go via Thameslink Railway (GTR) via GLA Assembly Member Caroline Pidgeon who as ever is being incredibly helpful.

I've obviously gone back asking what the permanent fix will be and when, and have asked to take up the offer of another site visit.

"

Please accept my apologies for the delay in responding.

The removal of the ticket barriers, as suggested by Councillor Barber, could potentially make things worse by increasing the flow of passengers entering the station, the majority of whom turn left towards the original, heritage footbridge and narrow stairways to the platforms. Ideally passengers arriving at Denmark Hill by train during the AM peak and intending to leave the station need to be encouraged to use the newer stairways and footbridge.

Our Head of Occupational Safety has made two visits to Denmark Hill station and identified directing the flow of passengers through the station as being the key to reducing conflicting passenger movement. With that in mind from 16 April (the end of the Easter school holidays) we will be introducing two additional members of staff for a period of three months. Their focus will be on safe crowd control on Mondays to Fridays between 06:30 and 10:30 and between 16:00 and 20:00. They will be provided by an agency that specialises in managing crowd safety which we have used with good results at other high footfall stations.

Other measures that will be taken include making more passenger announcements during peak hours and a review of existing signage.

I'd be happy to meet you and Councillor Barber at the station on morning or evening to review the above actions.

Best wishes,

"

[JohnL]

The Thameslink travelling north yesterday stopped at Denmark Hill - told everyone that there was going to be huge delays and everybody should get off as there was a fatality at Cricklewood (I and a few others didn't) and then proceeded in to central London faster than normal. (OK it happens and fatalities on the railway are never nice).

But a train full of extra people dumped on the platform at Denmark Hill at peak time. I'd have thought keep them on until Elephant even if there were delays ?

[Mick Mac]

James he above "solution" seems like a fudge to me.

Along the lines of "we built a long route down to the other end of the platform and we want people to use it, rather than the existing stairs. It's a bad design, but we still believe in it, even if passengers don't. We need to train them to use the long route to get to their train"

[lavender27]

It would be good if there was an exit near the bus stop, with a barrier naturally, instead of using the longer pathway to the exit and coming back on yourselves to get to the bus stop.

Whereas at the moment, waving your bus goodbye as you're stuck in a long queue to get out of the station.

[PipD]

jimlad48 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Scarily, the coffee bar entrance door used to be

> the sole door into the station - can you imagine

> that now?

I can remember another entrance/exit further round on Windsor Walk, or am I imagining it?!

[James Barber]

Hi JohnL,

That sounds ridiculous.

Hi Mick Mac,

Yes, it's a very short term fix.

Th problem stems form the original proposed design being to replace the 'heritage' walkway with a much wider one, linked to lifts and steps to platforms. Southwark Planning dept. advised they would not give planning permission. Hence the bridge and walkways taking people way out of their way and used only by a minority.

If I'd known I'd have intervened - but not in East Dulwich ward so didn't come ot my attention until after the fact.

An application for funding for an additional Windsor Walk entrance/exit has been made - but even if approved it will need planning permission and contract award, etc. So minimum 18 months but probably 2-3 years away.

[nxjen]

From September it will be possible to interchange onto the Elizabeth Line at Faringdon from Denmark Hill using Thameslink which will provide a handy connection to the West End, Paddington and further west. Is there any strategy in place to deal with the extra number of commuters then?

[James Barber]

Hi nxjen,

They've not yet caught up with the London Overground serving Peckham Rye and Denmark Hill - and that opened several years ago in December 2012 !

I'm expecting in May to know where the application for funds to open an extra entrance/exit on Windsor Walk have reached in the process.

[Bic Basher]

nxjen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> From September it will be possible to interchange

> onto the Elizabeth Line at Faringdon from Denmark

> Hill using Thameslink which will provide a handy

> connection to the West End, Paddington and further

> west. Is there any strategy in place to deal with

> the extra number of commuters then?

The Elizabeth line opens in December. Incidentally Thameslink trains are going up to 4tph from May. Two between Blackfriars and Sevenoaks and two between Kentish Town (Luton peaks) to Orpington.

[goldilocks]

Thanks for following this up James but the 'solution' massively misses the point. It assumes that the overcrowding is only as a result of the sheer number of people using the station, rather than that people are entering and exiting the station via only 4 ticket gates - which even when working correctly will cause a degree of delay.

The main problem with the access as people have pointed out is that commuters are both entering and exiting - meaning that there are only 2 gates in each direction (roughly) and it is this delay that leads to congestion on the stairways. If there was no 'pinch point' at the access gates then the congestion would not exist.

There is no situation where the platforms themselves become dangerously overcrowded and even the passing on original stairs of passengers exiting and entering the station is not too bad (apart from when the queue to exit extends to the footbridge.

This trial arrangement smacks of fare preservation at the expense of passenger safety and experience. Removing the ticket barriers would not make anything worse and to suggest so is disingenuous at best!

[Jakido]

Exactly, the issue is the gate bottleneck.

[EDPineapple]

Agree with the above, it's pretty easy to see that the problem is the gates. 2 gates in and 2 gates out is way too low for a station with 4 platforms. There are often 2 or 3 trains arriving at the same time during rush hour.

The idea that removing the gates would cause an issue in the walkway don't seem to ring true at stations such as Herne Hill from my experience.

This issue is only going to get worse as more people move to the area and begin using the station. So whilst GTR stall on finding a short term solution (opening of gates during peak periods and installation of additional 'tappads' along walkways) it's important that they continue to push on a long term solution (an additional entrance) to properly future proof the station.

[siousxiesue]

Yes as an occasional user, it seems obvious. The addition of touch pads at the top of every staircase leading to the platform you want seems the easiest solution to the perceived 'income loss' fear when leaving the gates open at peak times.

[civilservant]

it was helpful of James Barber to confirm that one of the main reasons for the overcrowding, and the associated risks to people using the station, was a planning decision by Southwark Council.

The sensible solution would have been for the new stairs and ramps to allow passengers to enter or exit the station directly onto Champion Park or Windsor Walk. On the Champion Park side at least, this wouldn't need a massive amount of engineering. There is absolutely no point to the new structures otherwise.

James, can you please tell us why the council say it couldn't be done?

[DulwichLondoner]

James Barber Wrote:

> The removal of the ticket barriers, as suggested

> by Councillor Barber, could potentially make

> things worse by increasing the flow of passengers

> entering the station, the majority of whom turn

> left towards the original, heritage footbridge and

> narrow stairways to the platforms.

Based on my experience, this might be partially true in the morning, but not in the evening, when there seem to be way more people leaving the station than entering it. If you have ever witnessed multiple trains arriving at the same time between 6.30pm and 7.30pm, you'll have seen there tends to be a bottleneck effect because there are simply too many people trying to leave the station and not enough gates. Should there be a fire or any kind of emergency that requires the evacuation of the station, I really don't know what would happen. I just hope we'll never find out. Enlarging the small footbridge by the coffee shop would not shorten the waiting time, nor reduce the hazard, because you'll still have the same number of people who need to leave through the same gates. Let's just hopes that, should that ever happen, the staff will be present and will open all gates promptly.

Leaving the gates open, at least in those times, so that only the people without a monthly or annual pass need to touch out, would however risk reducing the profits of Southern Fail. Profits vs safety, it seems.

[alex_b]

DulwichLondoner Wrote:

> Leaving the gates open, at least in those times,

> so that only the people without a monthly or

> annual pass need to touch out, would however risk

> reducing the profits of Southern Fail. Profits vs

> safety, it seems.

I wonder if it would increase fare dodging in a meaningful way? None of the central London stops on the Thameslink, Southeastern or Overground lines have barrier free exits/entrances, meaning you're not going to get away with not touching in/out at DH even without barriers.

[EDPineapple]

Went through Denmark Hill this morning at around 8:25 and the gates were all open.

I'm assuming this was because there were no staff on the gates at that point rather than them having taken on feedback from the forum :-)

However, with the gates open there were no queues whatsoever, no trouble on the walkways, and everyone I saw was touching in/out.

As Alex B mentioned above, I doubt leaving them open during peak hours would have much affect on fare dodging. The majority of traffic is commuters heading to/from stations with closed barriers. So a failure to touch in/out at Denmark Hill just results in a maximum fare being charged unless you're on a travelcard.

Just seems like such a simple fix.

[Siduhe]

The response from GTR seems to be entirely (and wrongly, IMHO) focused on putting people in a "better" place to queue to get out of Denmark Hill, rather than actually speeding up their ability to get out of the station in the first place.

[Sally Eva]

http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/complaints/an_introduction_complaining

Anyone thought of using this Trsnsport Users Group to complain? The Fire Brigade are the other people I would think of involving -- the entrance to this station is an accident waiting to happen.

[edcam]

Has anyone seen that there is work going on at the station? They've knocked a hole in the wall in Windsor Walk and are working on flattening the area behind the wall.

Could this mean they are finally doing something sensible and putting an exit in on that side?

[ollieloudon]

I asked the construction staff they said they aren't building an entrance sadly

[James Barber]

I can reiterate that. No planning permission has been sought fo a new entrance. When I last met with them the train operating company confirmed they were applying for funding for a new entrance and had provisional designs.