Support for our childrens teachers and staff

[Marmora Man]

George,

The NUT calculator comes out with the following figures for a 50 year old Inner London teacher on ?54K a year now and expecting to have a salary of ?62K just before retiring, if the proposed minor changes go thru'

1. An increase in pension contributions of ?91.62 a month. This would take the teacher's total monthly contributions to ~ ?275.00. Employer contributions will be ?640.00 a month

2. Retirement age becomes 66 (vice 65)

3. Pension will be ?1,975 a year LESS IF the teacher retires at 60. The NUT website is silent on the difference to pension if the teacher carries on until 65 but implies that this reduction will be less. If it wre more specific (honest) it might weaken the case it is trying to make.

The website does not indicate what the actual pension would be - but the Teacher's Pension Scheme (TPS) suggests, using same salary figures, it would be a tad over ?26,500 a year under current rules - so about ?24,500 under the new rules, which plus the state pension would give today's pensioner teacher an annual pension of ~ ?30K, significantly above today's average income. Not a bad deal.

The website also states, without making clear its calculation or assumptions, that over 25 years the total loss to a teacher will be ?170K. This is presumably the total estimated difference between a CPI uprated pension and an RPI uprated pension. Such a calculation is pure hypothesis and hyperbole and perhaps the basis for your rather wild claim of an ?8,000pa loss. No one can know what the difference between these two measures will be over the next 5 years - let alone the next 25 years.

I would add that nothing I have said, in this or other posts, is meant in any way to diminish or belittle the work of teachers. It is a vitally important role.

[mockney piers]

Aaah, MM, stop trying to reason with him. There has never been any reasoning with him, there will never be any reasoning with him.

He's either the most dedicated troll we have or mentally disturbed, there is no middle ground.

 

[peckhamboy]

This and this pretty much cover it for me.

[katie1997]

Didn't our dear Education Minister suggest that parents or more specifically mothers run the schools today? Brilliant idea. Faced with the challenges of the third form of St. Trouble they might decide that perhaps teachers are worth every penny and deserve a decent pension.

In fact, the sanctimonious Gove should put his money where his mouth is and try it for himself.

[Marmora Man]

little submarine commander

Wrong again - I'm 6'5" in my socks and weigh 17 stone!

[*Bob*]

If only everybody could do everybody else's jobs on a sort-of timeshare, then everybody might have some practical and useful experience about how easy or hard those jobs might be.. instead of standing on the opposite side of the hill, looking through a telescope with a green filter on the end.

[katie1997]

I'm working at home today *Bob*. If you are too, how about we swap login details and I'll see if I can post like you*? :))

Edited to add disclaimer: I know, impossible. *Bob* is unique.

[maxxi]

katie1997 Wrote:

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> I'm working at home today *Bob*. If you are too,

> how about we swap login details and I'll see if I

> can post like you*? :))

>

>

> Edited to add disclaimer: I know, impossible.

> *Bob* is unique.

You're already doing it aren't you.

ETA: That "unique" is a dead give-away *Bob*

[helena handbasket]

Mick Mac Wrote:

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> Sorry to hear how tough it has been for you

> Helena.

Oh no worries, nothing more boring than a teacher moaning about how hard it is. I actually annoy myself when I do that. ;-) Year end burn out.

I agree that the pension formula is unsustainable, but I think that more people would leave if it wasn't the carrot they dangle. Teachers are actually paid quite low in the UK (my salary dropped by roughly ?10,000/yr when I moved from Canada). It feels more and more like a McJob than the profession I spent seven years in university preparing for for.

[Brendan]

For what its? worth I get paid more and don?t work half as hard as the average teacher. I suspect the same is true for most of the people who spend their days posting on here.

I?m not really comfortable with professionals striking though.

[*Bob*]

My feeling is that most 'professional people' gravitate towards - and usually end-up working in - jobs they can cope with, jobs that suit them and (hopefully) jobs they can be good at.

A job which might seem like a nightmare to one would be appealing to another - and vice versa, of course. So to a certain extent, comparing jobs with wildly different rewards/challenges doesn't really work.

['bout now]

Loz Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> 'bout now Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Loz Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > AHHHH....why is there this notion that "if I

> > can't

> > > have it, why should they"?

> > >

> > > I don't object to them having it. I object

> to

> > my

> > > taxes paying for it.

> >

> >

> > Are you suggesting people in public service

> don't

> > pay tax? Or is it your tax/you are more

> important

> > than other people?

>

>

> Neither, obviously. I'm suggesting that the PS

> have their pensions supported by tax money and I

> don't. We are both putting in, but only one of us

> is taking out, as far as pensions go.

>

> >

> > Crass.

>

> So you asked two questions, instantly assumed you

> knew my answers and then felt it wise to berate me

> for the answers you made up yourself? That's

> taking a strawman to a whole new level.

Sorry Loz, it's a reaction I have to the use of the term "my tax(es)", to me it infers that they always belonged to you and that because they are yours you can spend them how you see fit, nothing Strawman, just a term that grates.

[georgegarrett]

What a load of bore from Loz n Mockney ! jumping up and down like little children yapping about trolls and goblins, same old same....question is so what. Pop yourselves down to the Maudsley and get a couple of shots, as your secret hero once said, "calm down dears, calm down'

Personally I though Sagatel was good value for money, I see our local politician is as silent as Milliband over this strike, why on earth this got moved out of the 'related to ED forum' i will never know.....does the chair care to explain?

Anyway whatever Mamora 'man mountain' states naked in socks and swerving some of the more negative facts, here are just some of the people that disagree with you pet.

Teachers, lecturers, education managers and support staff , Lecturers and other university and college staff, Head teachers and leaders at other education establishments, Court and job centre staff, border, customs and immigration officers, air traffic controllers and police support staff - among others, Local authority staff, NHS employees, police service workers, colleges and school staff - among others.....

So captain, Unison et all are coming for you, Helo's above and we'll drop a couple of old hedgehog's over the side for good measure.

"we can't afford decent public service pensions but we want to give you all shares in a bank" !

[Townleygreen]

Townley Green said

You should especially try teaching in your 60s. The actuaries tell us that if a teacher retires at 65, their life expectancy is 18 MONTHS.

Marmora Man said

I think you'll find this is an urban myth. It is certainly almost exactly, word for word, an oft quoted "fact" about military pensions and life expectancy.

A fairly recent report quoted by BBC indicates that a teacher's life expectancy was 79.2 in 2005 and expected to be above 80 by 2010.

I have read this BBC report and it is of no relevance! It gives life expectancy for ALL teachers, not for those retiring at 65, which is, as I have said, 18 MONTHS.

Keep it relevant, MM.

[georgegarrett]

Lets all play bullet points.

+ The pension arrangements for Nick Clegg , Dannny Alexander and Michael Gove are as follows. The Member will normally receive a pension of either 1/40th or 1/50th of their final pensionable salary for each year of pensionable service depending on the contribution rate they will have chosen. Members who make contributions of 10% of their salary gain an accrual rate of 1/40th.[11] An MP who has served 26 years and retiring today could look forward to receiving an annual inflation-proof payout of ?40,000 from their pension. State contributions for British Members of Parliament are more than four times higher than the average paid out by companies for final-salary schemes, and are slightly more generous than most public sector pensions.

+ A report by Britain's independent financial watchdog the National Audit Office found that public sector pensions were affordable -- projected to be about 1.7 percent of GDP by 2059/60, and that changes under the last Labour government to increase the pension age for new staff and to raise contributions also reduced the burden on the taxpayer.

+ The proposed changes therefore are not about the cost of public sector pensions to the Treasury. Instead they argue that the changes will allow the government to cut the budget deficit, currently running at about 10 percent of GDP, with the result that public sector workers foot the bill for a financial crisis they did not cause.

[Chippy Minton]

Brendan - what do you mean by "professionals." Is this white collar workers or would you include the skilled working class?

[georgegarrett]

Sorry townley .....but i am with you !

[Townleygreen]

Well said, George Garrett.

Meanwhile the 100 richest people in UK added ?65 billion to their wealth last year.

They are so good at avoiding taxes, too.

Can't expect the Tories to do anything about that, though can we, Marmora Man?

[Brendan]

Chippy Minton Wrote:

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> Brendan - what do you mean by "professionals." Is

> this white collar workers or would you include the

> skilled working class?

Sorry it probably not the correct choice of words. What I meant was people who provide essential services. Teachers, doctors, policemen etc.

Civil engineers and chartered accountants can strike all they like.

[Chippy Minton]

OK, I get what you mean, although I also think it's a tricky business defining "essential services" and I disagree that teachers should not be allowed to exercise their right to strike.

Whilst we're onto bullets, here's a couple to consider:

⋄ The average teacher's pension is ?10,275

⋄ The average civil servant's pension is ?5,023

Not really what I would consider massive pensions!

[georgegarrett]

a point.

If you work for a company for lets just say 10+ years and that company has always operated a enhanced redundancy benefit of a month uncapped, you stay with that company, give your loyalty to that company because despite your low wages the accrued benfits are good. Then out of knowhere the work force is 'outsourced' and you are taken over by some twice removed hedge fund investors. They then turn around a strip the 'enhanced' redundancy policy away leaving you with a basic staturatory of 5days per year capped at 12weeks, why because it was non contractual and they can.

Fair....not to my way of thinking, you gave your time and loyalty to the old company, they used it to keep their staff loyal, it benefitted the company, saved them money, gave them a great workforce on which to build their product or service, it was a gentlemans agreement, it means something. Now someone completely unconnected strips away that agreement , takes the accured rights and turns it into profit for the hedge funds. They make 20+% of the workforce redundant to maximise the profit from the outsourced contract and save of redundancy as well. The company is now more profitable and can be sold on again, no doubt to the same faceless hedge fund. A carousel wheel, a con.

It the same with teachers. They have stayed in that proffession, given time and energy on below average wages, in tough conditions and high stress. They contributed to their pensions always being told they were X. Then in come this coalition and go for these people in order to balance the books. All the while they continue to allow their 'friends' in big business to reap profit and reward. They used all our money to prop their banks up and save all their 100 riches mates most of of their 100's of billions of wealth but yet they come for those who are actually doing something to give back to society. And when these people protest they spin them into the dirt llike shit on their political shoes. Its wrong Danny Alexander and Michael Gove are political scum and thats it.

[StraferJack]

Minutes before c4 news, maude pulls out of appearing. Apparently other govt ministers are disappearing as well

Not a great show of leading the country I say

[Chippy Minton]

Maude got mauled by Evan Davies on the Today Programme so no surprise there. Listen again here, especially the last five mins http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9526000/9526631.stm

[helena handbasket]

Brendan Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Chippy Minton Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Brendan - what do you mean by "professionals."

> Is

> > this white collar workers or would you include

> the

> > skilled working class?

>

> Sorry it probably not the correct choice of words.

> What I meant was people who provide essential

> services. Teachers, doctors, policemen etc.

>

> Civil engineers and chartered accountants can

> strike all they like.

I'm more inclined to think of essential services as life or death....... certainly ambulance and doctors in hospitals, firefighters, air traffic controllers, police etc. etc.. Teachers and schools are important obviously, but no one will die if a few days of school are missed.

Parents are perfectly happy letting their children miss school if it means traveling off peak!

[srisky]

Brendan Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Chippy Minton Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Brendan - what do you mean by "professionals."

> Is

> > this white collar workers or would you include

> the

> > skilled working class?

>

> Sorry it probably not the correct choice of words.

> What I meant was people who provide essential

> services. Teachers, doctors, policemen etc.

>

> Civil engineers and chartered accountants can

> strike all they like.

Surely the right to strike should apply to all?

It seems absurd to say that those that do 'essential services' are not allowed to fight for better pay and conditions through strike action if negotiations fail.

Btw, this is not meant as an opinion on the specifics of the current strike action.