Brick House Cafe "is not a creche"

[Amanda1979]

This is hardly a quiet, calm cafe at the best of times. I personally don't go there as I find it over priced and hard to hold a conversation over the general noise in there. That said it is one of the more spacious cafes in ED so lends itself to mums meeting up.

Yes in ED mums do meet up for coffee in groups, for some it is their only support in an otherwise tough and isolating role. Anyone who has been a parent should know how hard it can be and how much a little compassion can help.

The thread is still up but for some reason not everyone can see the full thread anymore... I can but another friend can't.

I strongly object to the suggestion of the cafe that they are doing mothers a favour by supporting breastfeeding... it's the law sunshine, you have no choice!

We are in ED. There are *A LOT* of parents here, that means a lot of children of various ages.

Yes if a child is being disruptive speak to the parent but a baby crying for 3 mins is not a long time. If my baby is crying it takes 3 mins to get myself set so I can breastfeed... if a baby is bottle fed it could take longer.

Mothers have as much right to coffee as anyone else. In this area I suspect mothers make a vast majority of the footfall especially during the week.

If everyone was a little kinder the world would be a much nicer place.

[rendelharris]

Loz Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> This was, apparently, Friday. Fine and sunny,

> though a little cold. Or, the exact weather they

> then chose to decamp their whole group to after

> all the toys were thrown out the pram.

I cycled from ED to Rotherhithe and back Friday around 13.15. It pissed down the whole time (about forty minutes), though the weather was better before and after (though still very cold). Do you know what time this incident was? Thought not.

> Oh dear, it's rendellworld again. Which part of

> my post was a 'made up scenario'. Come on - quote

> me which bit was made up (excepting, of course,

> the bits where I firmly indicated conjecture.

> Clues: the words "probably" and "seems").

Ah I see, it's perfectly OK to completely make stuff up (and, not coincidentally, basically accuse the complainant of lying) if you include the word "probably", as in "probably a lot longer"? Let me have a go: "Loz is a jaundiced misanthrope who always thinks the worst of any person and their motives as he judges everybody by his own unpleasant standards. Probably." Gotcha.

> Or, you may wish to do your own research and note

> that a) the cafe responded to one of the 'friends'

> posting on their Instagram page and b) the whole

> thread is still there and has not been deleted at

> all.

When I saw the post on the other thread saying the reply was gone I checked and it was not there. Now it's there again. I don't use Instagram so I don't know its in and outs but it seems I'm not the only one who couldn't find it.

> For someone who is so quick to accuse others of

> making stuff up, you sure do talk a lot of utterly

> fictional guff.

Seeing as you've made stuff up about the weather and made stuff up about how long the baby was crying (oh yes, you did say "probably," which makes it alright in your eyes) I would check the walls of your glass house before flinging stones around with such gay abandon.

[beansprout]

Gather this has reached Evening Standard.......

[DaveR]

I am ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTED about the utterly selfish and intolerable behaviour displayed in connection with this incident and I challenge anyone not to be SIMILARLY OUTRAGED. I fully intend to ROUNDLY CONDEMN not just the original offenders but also anyone who seeks to defend them or suggest that there might possibly be any more nuanced approach to this question, when clearly any right thinking person would also be COMPLETELY CONVINCED of their justified anger and indeed horror at the DREADFULNESS of everything.

Rendel, I think it's your turn next.

[TheCat]

DaveR Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I am ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTED about the utterly

> selfish and intolerable behaviour displayed in

> connection with this incident and I challenge

> anyone not to be SIMILARLY OUTRAGED. I fully

> intend to ROUNDLY CONDEMN not just the original

> offenders but also anyone who seeks to defend them

> or suggest that there might possibly be any more

> nuanced approach to this question, when clearly

> any right thinking person would also be COMPLETELY

> CONVINCED of their justified anger and indeed

> horror at the DREADFULNESS of everything.

>

> Rendel, I think it's your turn next.

Ha. Very good. Who needs 'nuance' when you can have blind 'outrage'......

[rendelharris]

DaveR Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I am ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTED about the utterly

> selfish and intolerable behaviour displayed in

> connection with this incident and I challenge

> anyone not to be SIMILARLY OUTRAGED. I fully

> intend to ROUNDLY CONDEMN not just the original

> offenders but also anyone who seeks to defend them

> or suggest that there might possibly be any more

> nuanced approach to this question, when clearly

> any right thinking person would also be COMPLETELY

> CONVINCED of their justified anger and indeed

> horror at the DREADFULNESS of everything.

>

> Rendel, I think it's your turn next.

Oh no, an intolerant right wing Daily Mail twat is trying to be funny at my expense and another of the same has backed him up, how will I sleep tonight?

[dis...dat...d'udda]

we need to remember that this is after all SE 22 (Self-entitlement 22?) where "some" people seem to think they deserve to be given special privileges.

as a grandmother I appreciate to have child-friendly cafes to go with my grandchild for a short visit but...I also appreciate that there should also be some cafes for when we prefer to have a coffee and a quiet conversation with friends or just simply read...

children do not want to be in a caf? and naturally use them as playgrounds...

"some" mothers seem more interested in talking to other mums than attending children needs...not a good combination.

I remember going to a very child-friendly local caf? and a child was sitting on a potty at the very entrance. when I told the mother there was a toilet she simply shouted that I shouldn't judge her.

oh well...perhaps more common sense, consideration and understanding could help?

[worldwiser]

It always seems to me that Brick House has done their level best to design children out of their operation anyway: an industrial-looking space with concrete floors, endless queues and long waits for service, no play area, poorly laid-out seating.. whatever the merits of this case, why would any parent choose to take a child to such an establishment? Especially when there are so many overtly child-friendly places in the area with far easier prices and easier-going staff. The revived anetocafe being one which is utterly wonderful. I have always loved Brickhouse's bread which is genuinely delightful. I have rarely loved their cafe.

[rendelharris]

dis...dat...d'udda Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> we need to remember that this is after all SE 22

> (Self-entitlement 22?) where "some" people seem to

> think they deserve to be given special

> privileges.

>

> as a grandmother I appreciate to have

> child-friendly cafes to go with my grandchild for

> a short visit but...I also appreciate that there

> should also be some cafes for when we prefer to

> have a coffee and a quiet conversation with

> friends or just simply read...

>

> children do not want to be in a caf? and naturally

> use them as playgrounds...

> "some" mothers seem more interested in talking to

> other mums than attending children needs...not a

> good combination.

>

> I remember going to a very child-friendly local

> caf? and a child was sitting on a potty at the

> very entrance. when I told the mother there was a

> toilet she simply shouted that I shouldn't judge

> her.

> oh well...perhaps more common sense, consideration

> and understanding could help?

Indeed and as stated above I have zero tolerance for parents who allow their little darlings to run amok and spoil others' enjoyment of any facility. This was - and whatever halfwits say about nuance, this is a fact not denied by the proprietor - a three month old baby crying. Grown adults whining to staff that their entitlement to whatever the hell they think they're entitled to is being ruined by a babe in arms crying. And they have the cheek to call those who think that saying this is a bit off intolerant - first cast out the baulk in their own eye, might be a good shout.

[DaveR]

"Oh no, an intolerant right wing Daily Mail twat is trying to be funny at my expense and another of the same has backed him up, how will I sleep tonight?"

Can I just check whether right wingers should favour the cafe owner or the baby in this dispute? My support for either side is up for grabs and as I've made clear I'm DEFINITELY DISGUSTED AND OUTRAGED although I'm not sure I have your natural facility with the vocabulary of the perpetually morally offended. Come on Rendel, give me clue.

[rendelharris]

Deleted as realised arguing with haters is rather a waste of time, they're going to keep right on hating.

[Amanda1979]

I don't think anyone is disputing parents who let their children run amok should be spoken to but this wasn't the case. It was a mother attending to her crying baby and not being giving the opportunity to settle the babe before being asked to leave.

If it was a quiet calm cafe then I could also appreciate the crying babe being an issue but the general sound levels in there are so high I'm surprised a crying babe was even noticeable.

[ms_wilson]

.

[fatcats]

dis...dat...d'udda Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> we need to remember that this is after all SE 22

> (Self-entitlement 22?) where "some" people seem to

> think they deserve to be given special

> privileges.

>

> as a grandmother I appreciate to have

> child-friendly cafes to go with my grandchild for

> a short visit but...I also appreciate that there

> should also be some cafes for when we prefer to

> have a coffee and a quiet conversation with

> friends or just simply read...

>

> children do not want to be in a caf? and naturally

> use them as playgrounds...

> "some" mothers seem more interested in talking to

> other mums than attending children needs...not a

> good combination.

>

> I remember going to a very child-friendly local

> caf? and a child was sitting on a potty at the

> very entrance. when I told the mother there was a

> toilet she simply shouted that I shouldn't judge

> her.

> oh well...perhaps more common sense, consideration

> and understanding could help?

This was a 3 month old baby. There was no potty, no messy food, no running around, just a very young baby that was crying, as babies do. The cafe purports to be baby and child friendly, with high chairs etc. Other posters have also said it tends to be noisy, so it could actually have seemed like a very safe choice. How is a parent supposed to tell if a place is genuinely child friendly or not, especially if it's got high chairs etc? And how can a cafe claim to be child friendly and yet ask you to leave if your baby is crying? It's ridiculous to claim to welcome babies and young children as long as they don't exhibit behaviours associated with babies and young children.

Over the years I've seen a lot of people on this forum complain about babies/kids in pubs (and their mothers obviously - never the dads. Particularly when their mothers have the cheek to meet up with other mothers. That really gets their goat). But these posters object to them being in coffee shops also.

[fatcats]

NewWave Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Loz Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Rubbish. The owner didn't 'turf them', merely

> > asked her to step outside for a while with said

> > kiddy after it had gone for (according to them)

> > three minutes (but probably a fair bit longer).

> > But instead she and her friends decided to

> storm

> > out in a huff and complain on social media,

> which

> > although seems to have the initial effect they

> > wanted, seems to be coming down in favour of

> the

> > cafe. So, 2-1 to the cafe, it seems.

> >

> > The parent should have had enough

> self-awareness

> > to take the crying baby outside herself until

> it

> > settled. What is wrong with some people?

>

>

> I'm totally on the side of the Brick-House and

> what a sniveling s**t the mother was who ran to

> the press about this.

> I do find there are groups of mothers with babies

> who are totally oblivious to the needs of other

> customers in the place and spread out in big

> groups with buggies blocking the way, Carry cots

> (or car seat things)on the tables, wet wipes,

> feeding gear, back packs..again all on the tables

> leaving it hard for a customer like myself

> spending ?12 on a relaxed lunch to find a clear

> space to eat.

> I'm not a baby hater BUT I think its ridiculous

> the way these groups seem to take over large areas

> of the cafe for long periods of time (Longer than

> it takes me to get served,eat, digest and

> leave)nursing a cup of coffee a piece.

> I've also witnessed in a last week a mum letting

> her baby sit and crawl on the table..unhygenic and

> possibly dangerous for the baby should it grab an

> item of cutlery.

> They seem to treat it as some sort of 'club'....If

> your baby is crying as babies will at times pick

> it up, walk up and down, soothe it and if worst

> comes to worst take it outside and walk up and

> down the street for a few mins.

> The baby was probably crying because it wanted to

> be out in the fresh air being wheeled along seeing

> interesting colours and life-it was probably bored

> out of its mind being stuck in a cafe for hours

> listening to its mother going yadda yadda over an

> empty coffee cup with her mates.

You don't have kids, that much is obvious, but if/when you do I hope you remember everything you've written here.

[rendelharris]

fatcats Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Over the years I've seen a lot of people on this

> forum complain about babies/kids in pubs (and

> their mothers obviously - never the dads.

> Particularly when their mothers have the cheek to

> meet up with other mothers. That really gets their

> goat). But these posters object to them being in

> coffee shops also.

The same thing struck me, it's always mothers having the temerity to be out in public with their children that gets their backs up isn't it? More than a whiff of misogyny about it - presumably they should be home getting their husband's tea ready.

[Amanda1979]

And then there is the potential damage this has caused for all those new mums who were nervous about taking their new baby out... now they have seen this and some of the horrific comments, and decided to isolate themselves for fear of upsetting someone, and there goes the spiral of postnatal depression.

I was that anxious mum the first time around and now even though I'm determined to not go down that road again this whole sorry mess has made me all the more anxious about going out with my youngest.

Spread kindness.

[luka07]

...

[Amanda1979]

Don't tar all mothers with the same brush. Some of us buy a full meal, cake and a drink as it's the only way we get to have a proper meal during the day. And quite a few of us don't even use a buggy.

[TheCat]

rendelharris Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> DaveR Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

> Oh no, an intolerant right wing Daily Mail twat is

> trying to be funny at my expense and another of

> the same has backed him up, how will I sleep

> tonight?

Wow Rendell. That was unnecessarily aggressive. I like the comment from DaveR as I thought it was cleverly taking neither side of the debate, and I thought it was mocking the lack of nuance that the majority of online debates generally exhibit. I dont know his posting history, and even if I did, its irrelevant.

I object to your being rude. Its uncalled for. I dont know when I've personally shown behavior that you feel justifies branding me as a 'another intolerant twat', and I object to being 'labelled' as you have. But on the brightside, you have clearly proved my point about lack of nuance I suppose.

[Nigello]

Like referendums, single-issue topics on the EDF quickly and readily sprout add-on issues (latent misogyny; class war; gentrification, etc) which muddies the water.

Yes, be kind, but yes, also be reasonable and look at it from a variety of viewpoints.

The proprietor has it hard because he has to take into account the views of one of his customers who is unhappy and - probably - wanted him to intervene as this was, to that customer at least, the best way of resolving the issue. The mother has it hard because she thinks she was not given enough time to settle her crying baby.

If the proprietor is talking truthfully when he says he asked her to step outside to calm the child I think this is reasonable. Customer then decides she will not stay where she is not wanted and it all escalates. I doubt the proprieto isn't unaware of the kind of DM nightmare this sort of scenario can end up in, so I tend to lean towards his version of events, because why should he run the risk of Nappy Valley wrath if he didn't truly act as he said he did?

FWIW, I would have tolerated for a while, tolerated a bit more, then asked the parent before asking the proprietor. I would not just take it on the chin because to do so would be too permissive and allow people to think that anything goes as long as they are paying for a cuppa - albeit a rather expensive one.

[shuntman]

Due to the exceedingly high number of posts/opinions/responses etc I just thought I would add a ashort post to all those mums & dads with kids to let them know that if the whole sitting in/running around/leaving cafes (either voluntrily or under other disputed circumstances) is not to their liking this week (or indeed any other week) that they can book a family photo session with me by following this link and getting in touch

http://www.martinlea.co.uk/Family-Portrait-Sessions/

What's not to like !?

P.S. I also do business portraits & lifestyle shots too for business owners and have even been known to shoot food too from time to time.

(Thought I would balance the whole thing up and leave certain people guessing as to what paper I read too)

I don't read papers much but thanks for scrolling .......you are my fav ;))

[paulu1973]

Is this a non event given and i'm making a broad assumption in that daily mail readers don't live in east dulwich nor dine in a place that has smashed avocado and sour dough toast

[edcam]

Good for the Brick House.

[fonread]

Everything about this entire episode reminds me of the reason why I left SE22.