Brick House Cafe "is not a creche"

[rcmacf]

"Everything about this entire episode reminds me of the reason why I left SE22."

Coming to a postcode near you! Nowhere's getting less populated.

[fishbiscuits]

fonread Wrote:

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> Everything about this entire episode reminds me of the reason why I left SE22.

You don't need to leave East Dulwich to avoid this sort of nonsense, you just need to leave the forum.

You've done it the wrong way round, pal.

[fatcats]

luka07 Wrote:

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> I always been in cafes around East and North

> Dulwich, and sometimes we don't find place to seat

> and eat because there is lots of mothers with

> babies inside drinking one coffee and stays for

> hours!!!! babies cries, moms moving around and

> "real" customers don't feel in peace in a coffee

> place.

> I really understand the owners point, he probably

> is feed up about this situation every day, but the

> mothers in this area they thinking they are the

> best people in the world just because they caring

> a baby.... But someone needs to work, and coffee

> stores become a nice place for moms to seat and

> chat for hours and they don't thinking maybe they

> take so much place and don't consume... a piece of

> bread is not a profit!

> well... every one see the world in a different

> away, maybe one day this people can understand and

> respect the space of others. Its ridiculous the

> away the people spent time and efforts in publish

> on social media bad experience instead to use this

> tools in positive things... its look like they

> really don't have anything better to do... and its

> sad!

>

> *of course exist good people, and my comment not

> apply for every mom... but please note that my

> comment is in general and about what I see

> everywhere...

Love the idea perpetuated on this forum that *in general* being a mum involves sitting and chatting for hours. Because mums are not busy, not busy at all. They just sit around, chatting for hours. Not a care in the world. Because babies and small children definitely tolerate sitting in drinking and eating establishments for hours. Said a lot of people on a forum who have clearly not spent much time recently in the company of babies and young children. But nevertheless they are qualified to suggest that *in general* mums just sit around, with nothing to do, except get in people's way and ruin their coffee and dining out experiences with their stupid buggies and their selfish friends.

Also love that the debate over one specific incident has opened the seal to all the pent up hatred and frustration of mothers in public places in SE22 and beyond.

Did you ever think that maybe it's not one group of mothers sat around for hours? But perhaps in an area with a high proportion of mothers and young children that it could be groups arriving at various times?

Could someone also provide some factual information that shows mother spends less per visit to a drinking/eating out establishment than other members of the population? As it's being reiterated so frequently on this forum it's in danger of becoming established in people's mind as a fact. If it's going to be yet another stick to beat mothers with, let's at least make sure it's got a basis in fact

[DulwichFox]

Brick House Caf? to feature on ITV News London 18.00

DulwichFox

ETA About this very incident

[checkingin]

Having been in Denmark and Sweden recently (land of the hygge) I reckon they?ve found the solution.

Kiddies (yes even months old) are fabulously wrapped up in their prams outside with the kiddie Walkie talkies. One in the pram and one with the parent (mother/father) and when the baby cries the parents go outside as their walkie talkie alerts them then they pop outside to look after them. Everyone is happy :

No prams blocking space

No parents stressed indoors with crying babies

No other customers disturbed by what is after all simply a task a parent needs to deal with.

I think what works with the Swedish and danish habit is that no one group of peoples? needs are put above another?s.

Since East Dulwich is clearly enamoured with Hygge and all things Scandi (judging from the number of Hygge books on sale over Christmas,) perhaps in a more Scandinavian way the people of ED could adopt a more grown up approach by thinking of everyone?s needs and all will be much more happy and peace will reign.

[alice]

First out loud laugh today. Love it

[IlonaM]

Something for the laptop squatters:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/feb/12/no-laptops-allowed-the-cafes-bringing-back-the-art-of-conviviality

[rcmacf]

I've two cafes, and I could give some insight on the spending habits and related costs of laptoppers versus parents with kids, but it's not going to make me any friends, and let's not let anything factual get in the way of all the outrage going on, when we can all just disagree to disagree.

[DovertheRoad]

Amanda1979 Wrote:

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> And then there is the potential damage this has

> caused for all those new mums who were nervous

> about taking their new baby out... now they have

> seen this and some of the horrific comments, and

> decided to isolate themselves for fear of

> upsetting someone, and there goes the spiral of

> postnatal depression.

>

> I was that anxious mum the first time around and

> now even though I'm determined to not go down that

> road again this whole sorry mess has made me all

> the more anxious about going out with my

> youngest.

>

> Spread kindness.

Of all the froth and hot air above, Amanda1979's posts have been some of the most articulate, perceptive and well balanced. And I think many reading but not participating on this thread would agree. So, thank you Amanda.

Once again the EDF does a great job of using a small situation that could have been handled better to distort the reality on the ground. I remember first taking our babies out and yeah it was nerve wracking. Thankfully 97% of people you encounter get this and will he kind/helpful. Just as 97% of parents won't let their kids use a potty in the middle of a restaurant.

Remember the amplification of the EDF distortion field. It's not real life.

[tasha1]

I rarely post but feel compelled to. This thread feels like it's lost its way a bit. It seems to have become a vehicle for people to let off steam and anger towards 'self riteous parents', in particular mothers. My four kids are grown up now but I still remember the mortification I felt when one of mine as babies, cried out in public or as a toddler, kicked off. Toddlers can be almost impossible to reason with. I tried to mianly hang out at other people's homes due to the unpredictability of small children. However, a trip out for lunch helped me feel normal. I'm sure there are some self riteous parents, as there are some self riteous people in general. I'm sure the majority of parents relish those times when all is clam when they are out and about. However, this thread didn't begin as a rant about toddlers making a noise and parents ignoring their behaviour. As far as I'm aware, It was about a three month old baby crying for a short period. I wasn't there so I cannot say what exactly occurred. What does seem clear though is that the mother of the three month old has not herself made any compliant and did not go on to twitter herself. It was a friend of hers. I just feel that if I was the mother in this case and read some of the comments on here about her being self riteous, running to social media, her screaming child etc, I'd be mortified and very distressed. Being a mother and a new one ta that, is very difficult and it would be so nice if we could all just be a bit kinder to each other.

Edited to add. I've never been in the brick house cafe but I do actually feel for them too. It seems possible their social media response has also been taken out of context

[jimlad48]

I dont have kids and am on the side of the cafe here. To a non parent, small children crying or screaming is an intensely loud and frankly unpleasant experience, and one that is awful to listen to.

If I went to a cafe and walked in and heard loud screaming baby, I would leave and find somewhere else - persnally I just find the noise too unpleasant to listen to.

So, if I were the cafe owner, I would want to consider whether I put up with the noise, or run the risk of losing customers who may take their business elsewhere if they think the cafe is full of screaming children. There are plenty of family friendly cafes out there, its not unreasonable for some to be less family friendly and mindful of the rest of us who don't have children.

I don't think asking someone to calm a baby and come back is unreasonable, and if the mother doesnt like it she is fully entitled to vote with her feet. I personally plan to frequent this place more often knowing it is less likely to be somewhere that I would feel uncomfortable in.

Two sides to every story here, but I am on side of cafe.

[Amanda1979]

Just to reiterate... the mum tried to deal with this privately, it is the Brickhouse who responded on social media... and given the angle of the tv coverage I would guess they also took it to the tv as well.

[DulwichFox]

Turn up the volume and enjoy..

 

[Sue]

Why would anybody want to watch any time at all of a baby in distress?

[DulwichFox]

Sue Wrote:

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> Why would anybody want to watch any time at all of

> a baby in distress?

Same goes for people wishing to go for a Coffee and a Cake and have a quiet chat to their friends.

[Jacqui5254]

Brickhouse Bakery, I salute you for the way you have handled this.

I, for one, shall be visiting you even more often from now on.

And for the haters....I have just read on Instagram the following...

"A three minute cry is considered to be the general hum of daily life in ED nappy valley"

....JEEZ!!

[spider69]

If it was not for social media would this have any legs to keep running on and on.

[DulwichFox]

spider69 Wrote:

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> If it was not for social media would this have any

> legs to keep running on and on.

Well it was on ITV News London Yesterday and again today..

[Sue]

DulwichFox Wrote:

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> Sue Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Why would anybody want to watch any time at all

> of

> > a baby in distress?

>

>

> Same goes for people wishing to go for a Coffee

> and a Cake and have a quiet chat to their friends.

A crying child in a cafe with its mother trying to settle it is completely different to posting a video of a distressed and crying child on YouTube. And then people presumably choosing to watch it.

[NewWave]

fatcats Wrote:

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> NewWave Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Loz Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > Rubbish. The owner didn't 'turf them', merely

> > > asked her to step outside for a while with

> said

> > > kiddy after it had gone for (according to

> them)

> > > three minutes (but probably a fair bit

> longer).

> > > But instead she and her friends decided to

> > storm

> > > out in a huff and complain on social media,

> > which

> > > although seems to have the initial effect

> they

> > > wanted, seems to be coming down in favour of

> > the

> > > cafe. So, 2-1 to the cafe, it seems.

> > >

> > > The parent should have had enough

> > self-awareness

> > > to take the crying baby outside herself until

> > it

> > > settled. What is wrong with some people?

> >

> >

> > I'm totally on the side of the Brick-House and

> > what a sniveling s**t the mother was who ran to

> > the press about this.

> > I do find there are groups of mothers with

> babies

> > who are totally oblivious to the needs of other

> > customers in the place and spread out in big

> > groups with buggies blocking the way, Carry

> cots

> > (or car seat things)on the tables, wet wipes,

> > feeding gear, back packs..again all on the

> tables

> > leaving it hard for a customer like myself

> > spending ?12 on a relaxed lunch to find a clear

> > space to eat.

> > I'm not a baby hater BUT I think its ridiculous

> > the way these groups seem to take over large

> areas

> > of the cafe for long periods of time (Longer

> than

> > it takes me to get served,eat, digest and

> > leave)nursing a cup of coffee a piece.

> > I've also witnessed in a last week a mum

> letting

> > her baby sit and crawl on the table..unhygenic

> and

> > possibly dangerous for the baby should it grab

> an

> > item of cutlery.

> > They seem to treat it as some sort of

> 'club'....If

> > your baby is crying as babies will at times

> pick

> > it up, walk up and down, soothe it and if worst

> > comes to worst take it outside and walk up and

> > down the street for a few mins.

> > The baby was probably crying because it wanted

> to

> > be out in the fresh air being wheeled along

> seeing

> > interesting colours and life-it was probably

> bored

> > out of its mind being stuck in a cafe for hours

> > listening to its mother going yadda yadda over

> an

> > empty coffee cup with her mates.

>

> You don't have kids, that much is obvious, but

> if/when you do I hope you remember everything

> you've written here.

Dont make assumptions.....You don't know me.

[NewWave]

Jacqui5254 Wrote:

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> Brickhouse Bakery, I salute you for the way you

> have handled this.

>

> I, for one, shall be visiting you even more

> often from now on.

>

> And for the haters....I have just read on

> Instagram the following...

>

> "A three minute cry is considered to be the

> general hum of daily life in ED nappy valley"

>

> ....JEEZ!!

Yes..I'm going there more often to show support now too.

And I'm taking my well-behaved now 22year old daughter along too.

[Amanda1979]

This event really has bought out some people's ugly side. And all because of what appears to be a misunderstanding badly handled.

[Nigello]

I think people feel very protective of their offspring, naturally, whilst others feel similarly (But likely less strongly) vabout politeness, common sense and general civility. As it stands, I am erring towards the side of the cafe, whose owners have to accommodate all people at all times.

I have to say that common sense occasionally seems to go out of the window when it comes to parents and babies. Why struggle to bring in a buggy when you can easily remove the child and leave the pram outside, in full view? It happens way too often and is selfish and unnecessary.

Crying babies is not a nice sound, but neither are sneezing fits, coughing, loud phone conversations - all of which, I would have thought, would mean a brief stepping outside if you had any manners.

Rude behaviour needs to be challenged, as long as you feel safe, otherwise it spreads. As long as you are polite and calm and are prepared to walk away if people get offended - which is sometimes the case - it will be OK.

[Bagpipes]

Poor judgment from the Brick House Bakery owners from start to finish. How about offering the mum a coffee and a cake and and acknowledgment that BHB, in the heat of the moment, got this wrong? That this has become a three day event is entirely down to the owners (idiotically) digging their heels in.

[rendelharris]

Nigello Wrote:

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> Crying babies is not a nice sound, but neither are

> sneezing fits, coughing, loud phone conversations

> - all of which, I would have thought, would mean a

> brief stepping outside if you had any manners.

> Rude behaviour needs to be challenged, as long as

> you feel safe, otherwise it spreads. As long as

> you are polite and calm and are prepared to walk

> away if people get offended - which is sometimes

> the case - it will be OK.

Rather depends on your point of view, to me running to a caf? owner and complaining about a baby that's been crying for three minutes is the height of rudeness - and cowardice - whereas trying to calm a crying baby for a few minutes before (supposition I realise) having to wrap him/her back up in warm togs and take it back outside on what, despite certain other people's assertions, was a notably crappy day, doesn't come under the heading of rudeness at all.