Abortion debate

[snorky]

IIRC, one of the initial legal changes following the Bolshevik revolution was abortion being made legal. I also beleive that Homosexuality was de-criminalised.

As time went on, these rights were eroded or just plain reversed by such forward thinkers as Hitler , Stalin & Ceaucescu - usually with the implicit backing of those other ever present lumaries, the Catholic church.

Have a think about the historical precedents and people involved in resticting abortion. Pretty scarey.

trying to comapre fox hunting is a straw man.

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

trying to comapre fox hunting is a straw man.

Possibly but interesting to look at how MPs have voted on the two issues.

[barrymarshall]

Peckhamgatecrasher Wrote:

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>

>

> Just to stir it up a bit more, it always amazes me

> that people are so anti fox hunting and protest

> the rights of the fox yet have no qualms about

> cutting up babies. Queer world.

But what about people who care so much for the rights of unborn foetuses and the "miracle of life", etc., but do f-all when it comes to the real suffering of millions of already living people around the world? Are the anti-abortion lot also protesting outside weapons manufacturers' premises, for example? Are they working to turn the world into an egalitarian utopia free of starvation, need or disease?

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

I've never been on a rally or protest of any sort in my life which possibly makes me a hypocrite.

I can't speak for all of those who are against abortion, just me and I hold all life sacred. For example, I am deeply saddened by the rise in the killing of young people lately, this is a mad generalisation I know, but it seems to indicate a lack of respect for life in some quarters.

[mockney piers]

Well I guess we're back to original sin, as long as you're born and blessed you can die safely.

Temporal suffering is of course of no import or concern and doubtless thoroughly deserved as a very shouty man on the tube insisted on telling me and the rest of the carriage this morning.

c**t

[Brendan]

snorky Wrote:

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> IIRC, one of the initial legal changes following

> the Bolshevik revolution was abortion being made

> legal. I also beleive that Homosexuality was

> de-criminalised.

>

> As time went on, these rights were eroded or just

> plain reversed by such forward thinkers as Hitler

> , Stalin & Ceaucescu - usually with the implicit

> backing of those other ever present lumaries, the

> Catholic church.

Just a historical point here but.

Neither Hitler, Stalin nor Ceaucescu were influenced by the Catholic Church. In fact they all opposed the church in their different ways.

The Bolshevik Revolution happened in Russia long before Germany or Romania came under its sway.

I do get the point you are trying to make though.

[Maurice]

The words 'respect' and 'responsible' shine through here.

I think it no more helpful for an angry 'moral' mob to chastise women who choose to abort than a so-called 'feminist' suggesting it's just another means of birth control akin to popping a pill.

I also think we all are entitled to a view on this issue. The liberation of women movement was not about giving exclusivity to women on abortion issues. It was/is about taking away exclusivity from men on the issue. How we deal with our newborns and nearly deads are the mark of a civilised society.

[barrymarshall]

Peckhamgatecrasher Wrote:

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> I've never been on a rally or protest of any sort

> in my life which possibly makes me a hypocrite.

>

PGC - I don't want to accuse you of hypocrisy. I had in mind more the people who protest outside abortion clinics and spend their lives fighting for the rights of the unborn, but seem to care not a jot about the rights and dignity of those already alive.

Likewise, anti-foxhunting/vivisection types will protest for the rights of animals but human rights seem to have passed them by ...

[snorky]

Brendan Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> snorky Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > IIRC, one of the initial legal changes

> following

> > the Bolshevik revolution was abortion being

> made

> > legal. I also beleive that Homosexuality was

> > de-criminalised.

> >

> > As time went on, these rights were eroded or

> just

> > plain reversed by such forward thinkers as

> Hitler

> > , Stalin & Ceaucescu - usually with the

> implicit

> > backing of those other ever present lumaries,

> the

> > Catholic church.

>

> Just a historical point here but.

> Neither Hitler, Stalin nor Ceaucescu were

> influenced by the Catholic Church. In fact they

> all opposed the church in their different ways.

> The Bolshevik Revolution happened in Russia long

> before Germany or Romania came under its sway.

>

>

> I do get the point you are trying to make though.

ish

The lateran pact was an agreement brtween the fascists and the Catholics.

Hitler was a catholic and aftyer he came to power, the Catholic church removed a ban on catholics joining teh nazi party - Adolf wasnt a chrisitn as suchm, but him & the church were bedfellows for the duration

Stalin was a failed orthodox priest

BUT

byes, my point is that intriducing further limits on perosnal choice on matters like this isnt a good omen

[snorky]

Peckhamgatecrasher Wrote:

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> trying to comapre fox hunting is a straw man.

>

> Possibly but interesting to look at how MPs have

> voted on the two issues.

Dont want to deride your input PGC, but MPs are on the whole, pigs.

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

The point I was trying to make re suffering in the world, was much better made by BarryM and Snorky. When horrendous things are being done in our name to innocent people all around the world who are already living, why do some people get obbsessed about trying to save an unwanted feotus? Who is going to then ensure this feotus has a happy life, or has it's needs met - or does the anti-choice work finish as soon as the baby is born?

Also trauma is relative. Many people make life-changing decisions of huge magnitude, and may not feel that deciding to have a termination comes anywhere near this e.g soldiers having to shoot someone in front of them, someone having to make a choice to save some but not all of their kids in a fire/famine/war zone etc.

I was not traumatised by having a termination, because it was not as traumaric as other things I have had to live through, e.g being an unwanted child.

Something else; it seems to me that the very people who blame kids for being out of control when they have appalling lives, are the very same ones who would prefer their mothers to keep another unwanted baby to allow to become out of control.

When you help those already born, then you have more moral weight in your anti-abortion stance. I am someone who always wants to help people whose lives are messed up for whatever reasons, and this is why I know you should not force people who cannot cope, to have babies they cannot look after.

[Brendan]

Snorky I got your point and I agree with it. I was just being pedantic and questioning the direct links between the leaders and events you mentioned.

Oh and the Lateran pact was between the fascist administration of Italy and the Catholic Church. The Nazi?s were not party to it.

Officially the pope opposed the Nazis but in practice there was varied support, opposition and apathy towards them from the Catholic Church in Germany. At one stage during the war Hitler tried to close down all the convents and monasteries but stopped because he was worried about loosing the support of the catholic part of the population.

[Brendan]

Sorry I?m veering wildly off topic here. I?ll just shut up.

[snorky]

Brendan Wrote:

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> Snorky I got your point and I agree with it. I was

> just being pedantic and questioning the direct

> links between the leaders and events you

> mentioned.

>

> Oh and the Lateran pact was between the fascist

> administration of Italy and the Catholic Church.

> The Nazi?s were not party to it.

>

> Officially the pope opposed the Nazis but in

> practice there was varied support, opposition and

> apathy towards them from the Catholic Church in

> Germany. At one stage during the war Hitler tried

> to close down all the convents and monasteries but

> stopped because he was worried about loosing the

> support of the catholic part of the population.

Word!

[mockney piers]

Just to be equally pedantic brendan, snorky said "The lateran pact was an agreement brtween[sic]* the fascists and the Catholics."

He didn't mention the nazis for that point, though very easy to infer that as it was followed by the word Hitler, but in a new paragraph**. Mussolini may not have been a nazi, but he practically invented fascism (well, actually the romans were pretty good at it in the first place, spartans too really, but I really digress now).

Incidentally have we Godwinned this debate now?

*I gather some coffee and biscuits not mixing well with technology may be responsible for erratic typing today.

** remind me to get a life ... or a new job.

[Maurice]

Chav while I don't actually disagree with many of your points here, I think my ongoing issues of fundamentally not agreeing with your slant to offer a blanket pardon to 'poor souls' who shouldn't face the consequences of their decisions because of the 'evil (mostly white), western, male dominated world' who brazenly bulldoze them at every corner.

Sometimes we have to take individual responsibility for our behaviour/choices and the consequences. Blaming others may even be valid, but it shouldn't be our default.

[Brendan]

Touch? MP.

I think I Godwinned it. That is why I am now stepping out in order to allow everyone else to get on with what they were talking about initialy.

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

Mockney Piers said:

"Temporal suffering is of course of no import or concern and doubtless thoroughly "

Au contraire - its exactly because of what a foetus suffers physically that causes my concern. I have no doubt that God is capable of embracing all the unshriven babies without my input.

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

Maurice - not a pardon, an explanation and does that personal responsibility also extend to finding out the provenance of the goods we buy, the services we use and the level of exploitation used to produce them? Or what about taking responsibility for other acts that may make make our life more pleasant, but may adversely impact someone elses life, eg campaining against drug services or trying to keep our road blocked off from traffic?

[Keef]

barrymarshall Wrote:

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> Likewise, anti-foxhunting/vivisection types will protest for the rights of animals but human rights seem to have passed them by ...

Slightly off topic, but I f**king hate those people! Don't get me wrong, I think fox hunting and a lot of animal testing is terrible, but these extreame campaigners that will hurt people, and dig up dead old ladies, what the fcuk is that about?

Anyway, back to abortion.

[Mark]

Peckhamgatecrasher Wrote:

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its exactly because of what a foetus suffers physically that causes my concern.

Do foetuses (foetii?) suffer physically in an abortion or are they swiftly killed without knowing what's happening?

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

Jury's out - see hyperlink above in my earlier post. I personally would rather err on side of caution since it cannot necessarily be quantified.

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

But child abuse and neglect to unwanted children on the other hand can be quantified. As can post-natal depression, increased risk of suicide, alcoholism and drug abuse.

[Mark]

I was meaning what's the process i.e. is it anaesthetised so that it won't feel pain (erring on the side of caution in case it can feel pain) or is it done in a way that it would feel pain (if it did feel pain)

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

There is medical abortion (tablets) and surgical abortion (chop up and suck out).

Here is a link to the processes WARNING do not click on it if you are sensitive. It is by a pro-life organisation so someone might want to post a link from pro-abortion to even it up.

http://www.lifesite.net/abortiontypes/