Amy Winehouse passes away.

[DJKillaQueen]

That said, I am pretty sure there are rules about serving intoxicated people, and whoever served that man was very much in the wrong.

It is actually an offence to serve someone that is intoxicated, for which you can be fined. Every licence holder knows that - and that goes for bars and retailers alike.

[DJKillaQueen]

helena handbasket Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Is that an actual fact?

Of course it's a fact....think of all the people you've ever known that drink alcohol, and how many of them can't get through a day without being drunk or drinking a substantial amount of alcohol?

[helena handbasket]

That's not the definition of alcoholism. So spare the "of course" please.

[TE44]

http://www.blackpoppy.org.uk/index.html

Black Poppy is a magazine which has been going for many years now. The people who put this together are drug users

and ex users who would like to be part of the solution instead of the problem. They have taken on many issues and

helped users to become more informed about there choices in drug taking.

Click on link for new website

[Heinz]

Sorry to reiterate, but about what the human right to do with one person what one pleases...I think I should be allowed to do with myself what I want,and so should you.

[helena handbasket]

DJKillaQueen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> that there are also functional heroin addicts and

> recreational users that are perfectly capable of

> keeping it under control.

>

> Yes they exist but most users of heroin are

> completely messed up by it. I'd even argue that

> most of the people I have known that regularly use

> any kinds of drugs recreationally are messed up

> too. Now it might be that heroin is an 'addicts'

> choice of drug...i.e. that most people just

> looking for a buzz would choose something else

> before heroin but I think to try and water down

> the impact and nature of heroin as something that

> can be kept under control is not a view that most

> doctors and drugs workers would take (not that I

> am saying that you are watering down it's impact).

>

>

> Heroine, on the other hand, is the only drug that

> mice in labs will work for and choose over food.

>

> I think that demonstrates perfectly the addictive

> nature of the drug. It has the power to make

> addicts of people rather than being used by those

> who are addictive. Heroin causes physiological

> addiction. Some will be strong enough to resist

> that, but most users aren't. A few pints of beer

> will never turn you into an alcoholic in

> themselves.

>

> My father was an alcoholic and I thnk most people

> have experience of that more than they might know

> someone afflicted by heroin. But the fact still

> remains that the vast majority of people who drink

> alcohol do so sensibly.

Okay then let me put it differently. Most heroine users are probably addicts. But there are for more alcohol users (as you point out), so statistically it is not a stretch to suggest that there are probably more alcoholics that heroin addicts (I won't state that as fact because it can't be measured!). I don't actually know any heroin users (that I'm aware of) but I know plenty of alcohol addicts or at least alcohol abusers. Fine line.

And it's not generally acceptable to go for lunch with your boss and shoot up, but feeding your booze addiction is fine, so how do we know frequency of dosing?

Honestly it feels stupid to get into a pissing match over which addiction is worse. Amy Winehouse was just as addicted to one substance as the next because she was an addict. Sadly her rock bottom was death.

[DJKillaQueen]

But as a percentage of all people that drink alcohol there are less alcoholics. Look at the percentage of heroin users that are addicts and is going to be higher, mainly because of the psysiological addictive nature of the drug....all the data, stats and medical evidence support that (although I acknowledge that some heroin use is going to be hidden because of the illegal aspect). And it's an important distinction to make when considering issues of legalisation or control.

How do you define an alcoholic? Having a glass of wine at lunch is not alcoholism. Nor is having a glass of wine at the end of the day with your dinner. But if you can't have a meal without drinking alcohol then that is a form of addiction yes.....but is it harmful? One glass of wine a day is not going to do much damage to most people's bodies or state of mind.

My father was an alocohic. I know the differnce between that and someone having a glass of wine at lunch.

Amy Winehouse wasn't always an addict. And maybe if she'd kept different company she'd never have taken heroin.

[Heinz]

helena handbasket Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> DJKillaQueen

> >

> > Heroine, on the other hand, is the only drug

> that

> > mice in labs will work for and choose over

> food.

> >

> > I think that demonstrates perfectly

> >....that even mice on heroin can work

[DJKillaQueen]

Hmmm.... not sure they were measuring the ability to work under the influence of heroin Heinz lol....;-)

Mind you...I would think nicotine is probably the most addictive thing out there.

[helena handbasket]

No I was pointing out that heroin is the most addictive substance tested on rats. Which is why I also pointed out that most (all?) heroin addicts were addicted to something else first. And not all addicts will make the leap to heroin, so there are actually less heroin addicts than other kinds. I don't see a debate in it's addictive qualities, why bother?

And if you look at the psychopathology of addiction, it can be as simple as a glass of wine with dinner, depending on why you have it. It's about WHY, not about HOW, they administer. Most or many addicts I think use it as some version of self-medication. They're sometimes the people at Sainsbury's adding that extra bottle of wine to the cart.

[helena handbasket]

Yes you are right about nicotine, as it is the drug requiring the most amount of constant administering.

[zeban]

helena handbasket Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> No I was pointing out that heroin is the most

> addictive substance tested on rats. Which is why

> I also pointed out that most (all?) heroin addicts

> were addicted to something else first. And not

> all addicts will make the leap to heroin, so there

> are actually less heroin addicts than other kinds.

> I don't see a debate in it's addictive qualities,

> why bother?

>

>

> And if you look at the psychopathology of

> addiction, it can be as simple as a glass of wine

> with dinner, depending on why you have it. It's

> about WHY, not about HOW, they administer. Most

> or many addicts I think use it as some version of

> self-medication. They're sometimes the people at

> Sainsbury's adding that extra bottle of wine to

> the cart.

Yep, completely agree HH.

[cuppa tea]

DJKillaQueen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> But as a percentage of all people that drink

> alcohol there are less alcoholics. Look at the

> percentage of heroin users that are addicts and is

> going to be higher, mainly because of the

> psysiological addictive nature of the drug....all

> the data, stats and medical evidence support that

> (although I acknowledge that some heroin use is

> going to be hidden because of the illegal aspect).

> And it's an important distinction to make when

> considering issues of legalisation or control.

>

This is an interesting spin on experiments of how addiction effects rats. Science is never black and white and neither is addiction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park

[acm]

.

[edcam]

acm Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I hear Elton John will be at her funeral playing

> "Candle under the spoon".

>

> Too soon?

It's always too soon for such a crap joke.

[LadyDeliah]

I think the point HH was trying to make was how would you measure how many recreational heroin users there are as they are not likely to be as public in their use as recreational drinkers.

I know of a couple of functioning addicts and recreational users of heroin, but there may be others who remain undetected in our community because they hold down a job and can afford to buy decent gear.

I think we need to look at what works and what doesn't. Prohibition has blatantly failed and criminalised users and suppliers. It's a waste of resources and a massive waste of people's lives.

People want to imbibe mood altering substances for whatever reason, be they heroin, alcohol or other drugs. That is a fact of life. Why not decriminalise those substances, control and tax them?

Take the supply out if the of the criminal multi-million pounds drugs trade. Use the revenue to improve treatment for people who have become addicted and stop the murders that go hand in hand with the fight for control of the illegal trade in drugs.

[Cassius]

Heinz Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Sorry to reiterate, but about what the human right

> to do with one person what one pleases...I think I

> should be allowed to do with myself what I

> want,and so should you.

But surely if that doesn't impinge on other members of society - because you cannot do your job so someone has to cover, because you have to commit a crime to pay for whatever substance you are indulging in, because your friends and family are adversely affected by your behaviour, or because limited NHS funds have to be used in order to assist you if and when your addiction affects your health.

However if you can indulge without affecting anyone else - then why not!

[Otta]

Exactly right Cassius.

I'm all for people doing what they like,so long as the take a bit of social responsibility.

[TE44]

People are addicted to gambling, food, smoking, prescription drugs etc, although these all may be legal just

wondering if above posters feel these peoples choices should also be questioned.

I agree with LadyDeliah about decriminalization, but feel a close watch would be needed and a strong connection

between goverment to the streets.

[DJKillaQueen]

Decriminalisation won't remove the criminal element. Just look at the criminal gangs making fake booze and cigarettes or importing duty free. The border agenices and Police are just as rubbish at controlling that. The gangs selling illegal drugs will still sell them, just undercutting the tax and perhaps watering the substances down further. And as is the case is now, the poorest will buy from the criminals.

Street prtices for drugs like cocaine and ecstacy have fallen dramatically over the last two decades. The governments principle is to tax heavily anything that may be detrimental to health (by way of discouraging use). I personally can not see any form of decriminalistion that will improve anything much (apart from making purer/ safer versions legally available for those that can afford them) - although I think LadyD's point about redirecting tax into resources to help those that get into trouble is a good one (but can't see any government doing that - how much of the tax on cigarettes goes towards helping people to quit for example?).

[LadyDeliah]

DJKillaQueen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Decriminalisation won't remove the criminal

> element. Just look at the criminal gangs making

> fake booze and cigarettes or importing duty free.

> The border agenices and Police are just as rubbish

> at controlling that. The gangs selling illegal

> drugs will still sell them, just undercutting the

> tax and perhaps watering the substances down

> further. And as is the case is now, the poorest

> will buy from the criminals.

Not sure how many murders occur overe these illegal activities though.

[TE44]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-13944209

It seems they are still prescribing heroin in London. (link)

I think it's a good idea, if people being prescribed methadone are selling it for heroin, and this is well known,

Isn't the system encouraging a black market, it used to be cheaper to prescribe heroin than methadone, not

sure if that is still the case.

[zeban]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011/aug/01/amy-winehouse-drug-rehab-centre

[DJKillaQueen]

They need to put far more money and resources into this and into general mental health services too, as many people who get into trouble with drugs and/or alcohol are also suffering from severe depression.

[Otta]

Totally agree.

A new rehab clinic is great and all that, but it's a sticky plaster on a gaping wound!

Present with mental health issues these days, and you might (if you're lucky), get 6 sessions of CBT (having waited at least a coupl of months). CBT has it's place, but frankly, 6 sessions isn't going to do a lot, and CBT isn't the answer for everyone.

Mental Health services are absolutely shocking in this country! Not the fault of the professionals who work in it, but the fact there are not enough of them, and it isn't taken seriously by the people holding the purse strings. They pay lip servie to it, and little more.