Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill

[bels123]

Obviously not everyone can, but a lot could - 1 in 4 car journeys are under a mile.

If you're sat in a car in traffic you can be breathing in exhaust fumes upto 10 times as much as outside the car.

[betternowthanthen]

FOR THE ADDENTION of rendelharris

Your really not helping the good people here explain what is real and very concerneing problem to locals who need to help out other good people and to help them understand the situation of a terrible decsion the council have made recently, i'm very gradfull for talfourdite starting this thread, I'm 100% back her/his inmofmitive and helfull imformation in rectifying this terrible decision, which in creases pollution/traffice/noise and safty concerns.

You rendelharris (if thats your real name!) have done nothing but pointless nic picking at peoples comments, your stopping the natual flow of helpfull decent and kind conversation, your distracting the direction of the conversation with ill thought replys which utterly have no cohersion to the situation that other good people here are trying to make.

YOUR NOT HELPING ANYTHING BY THE WAY

You seem to be completly undetered by the actual facts people here are saying that are true, and only commeting to shame them, even thoiugh they are right.

You seem to favour a council that is brushing things under a carpet, who is not listing to us, like you are.

Your in favour of people making longer car journys in heavy traffic roads

your in favour of high pollution levels it seems to.

Your commeting in an attitude like they are thick or something....which is wrong to do.

Please pic on other trolls on this forum and waste thieer time, not the good people here who are trying to amend stupid decisions that you seem to defend FOR NO APPARENT REASON, with out and considerationthan other than yourself self interest. Of which your yet to revel, as i'm sure your be found out, sure that'll happen by what noncence you post.

:) this smile is only for you, only you...

[rendelharris]

Jolly good. I can't wait to see my secret self-interest revealed, as I don't even know what it is myself. Thank you for drawing it to my addention.

[rendelharris]

Passiflora Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> But not everyone can walk that distance or cycle

> even BELs so of course you would adopt a selfish

> attitude, just like Rendel, who hates everybody

> that drives a car!

The EDF is the only forum I know where not polluting and not clogging up streets with dangerous machinery is regarded as selfish. I do not hate everybody who drives a car by any means, some car journeys are necessary and some people need to use cars. I hate wasteful, selfish people who regard their "right" to drive a car as having precedence over anything else, and people who insist on driving when perfectly viable, non-environmentally-destructive options are available.

[first mate]

Anyway, to get the thread back on track, residents have until September 30th to comment either in favour or against.

For now, it does seem the case that this experiment is having a negative effect on traffic levels in East Dulwich, at least that is what some residents are reporting.

[James Barber]

Having made a point of walking along East Dulwich Grove and Melbourne Grove this morning I can see the problem - ROADWORKS. Gas leak road works started on Sunday, water connection on Monday. The gas annoyingly didn't;t have anyone working at the site from 8am this morning. I didn't get to the water one close to Lordship Lane (look at that one at lunch time).

This link shows several along East Dulwich Grove and the attached picture shows temporary traffic lights on East Dulwich Grove - http://public.londonworks.gov.uk/roadworks/?x=rj1zlqRGHMYbf929f5Rukg

This does not show that the one-way on Champion hill is the cause of current queuing as described.

[richard tudor]

Those works have been there for a long time. Both there and works outside the new Charter school.

[Abe_froeman]

James, there doesn't seem to be any traffic at all on either side of the road in that photo?

[James Barber]

I took the photo at the end of a log green phase going west - which I suspect is making the problem worse the light timings. And all Temporary Traffic Management Orders are approved by Southwark Council - clearly they're not insisting on being told the timings of lights or asking for adaptive lights that sense vehicle queueing and re balance green passes accordingly.

[Cardelia]

James Barber Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> This link shows several along East Dulwich Grove

> and the attached picture shows temporary traffic

> lights on East Dulwich Grove -

> http://public.londonworks.gov.uk/roadworks/?x=rj1z

> lqRGHMYbf929f5Rukg

> This does not show that the one-way on Champion

> hill is the cause of current queuing as described.

Well, James, traffic levels on East Dulwich Grove were pretty similar the week immediately after Champion Hill was closed. There were no roadworks then, so it's fair to say that the closure of Champion Hill has - at the very least - been a contributory factor to the increased traffic levels on EDG. There's no doubt that the current roadworks are making the situation worse, but that doesn't mean they're the only cause of increased traffic levels on EDG. Shall we wait until next week and see what happens when the works are finished?

I'd also like to point out that there are no roadworks on Grove Lane/Champion Park, and traffic levels on those two roads are significantly worse than they were prior to the closure of Champion Hill. Would you care to offer an explanation for that?

[James Barber]

Yes, at some point Southwark will deploy traffic counts on all the local roads and we'll all be able ot see the changes in traffic levels.

[goldilocks]

James - just to clarify there are some roadworks this week, but there weren't the week before half term and the tailbacks were just as bad. There has been a significant step change in the level of queueing traffic ever since the champion Grove closure has been implemented. Whilst it seems a large diversion - there are only so many routes available to Herne Hill and beyond given the playing fields between the top of Dog Kennel Hill and ED Grove so its not implausible that this change is caused by the road closure.

[sdrs]

Absolutely right. The dangerous increase in congestion on Melbourne Grove and East Dulwich Grove has coincided exactly with the Champion Hill no entry trial, it cannot be attributed to the roadworks which long predate the trial (though yes, the displaced traffic from the Champion Hill trial is encountering roadworks when it reaches EDG). Unable now to access Denmark Hill via Champion Hill and faced with gridlock on Grove Lane and Champion Park between 8 and 9am every day, motorists are clearly seeking an alternative route to Denmark Hill via Melbourne and East Dulwich Grove. This is the very opposite of ?healthy streets?, the slogan used to justify the no entry trial - this is vehicles including diesel buses siting in long queues alongside primary and secondary lschools at both the top and bottom of the hill, spewing out pollution. James, you are a resident of Champion Hill and in favour of the trial. Fine, but please don?t let?s pretend that the significant rise in congestion and pollution we?ve seen on northbound and westbound routes around Champion Hill since the closure have nothing to do with it.

[goldilocks]

Also - the roadworks don't 'long predate' the trial - they're sporadic - there may be an order for the whole period, but they're not always there. There was a week or so with none before half term. We travel along this route every day (though try to avoid walking along the main road for obvious reasons!)

[James Barber]

Hi sdra,

The road works started 24 Feb?

How do they long predate?

[goldilocks]

James - there have been various roadworks along ED Grove for months now - these particular ones may have started on the 24th but over recent months there have been many traffic light controlled roadworks on this stretch (as you'd expect with the school and health centre works).

The point of my clarification earlier was that for the first week of the Champion Grove trial there were no roadworks on ED grove and the tailbacks were longer than when there were (pre trial). Obviously roadworks exacerbate the problem, but it doesn't detract that in making changes to the traffic flows around champion hill /Dog Kennel hill, traffic has built up unacceptably along East Dulwich Grove. Whilst this was always a busy route, the queueing is now excessive along a route with 3 separate schools and a route to many more!

[Galileo]

It was queuing along EDG all the way back from Mag to Lordship lane mid afternoon today. The traffic was horribly and crossing the road felt like the Wild West! I don?t know precisely what is causing it but there is a definite worsening of traffic queuing on both EDG and Grove Vale st the moment.

[sdrs]

Agree. Residents are observing a clear and unacceptable increase in congestion and pollution as a result of the scheme - ironically, its stated purpose was to reduce pollution! This is a scheme for which there was no evidenced need and which is failing in its vaguely stated objectives. The pollution it is causing is precisely what is worrying residents, our children have to breathe it in on their way to school. The delay to bus journeys is also unacceptable - journeys taking more than twice as long as they should between Dog Kennel Hill and Denmark Hill in morning rush hour.

Here?s a link to the consultation

https://consultations.southwark.gov.uk/environment-leisure/champion-hill-no-entry-trial-monitoring-form/

[heartblock]

Apologies for copying from my comment on another thread but..Over 25 years the traffic on East Dulwich Grove has become worse and worse. Every time there is a new set of lights or a new traffic calming hump or island put in it just makes it worse. There is either long queues of traffic at rush hour or speeding traffic at other times, with cars not stopping at pedestrian crossings or racing across speed bumps at ridiculous speeds. The pollution is also terrible. It is an A road but it is also a residential area and has 3 schools. Closing other roads and not planning globally across the road system combined with a preference to please residents in more expensive housing areas has pushed more traffic onto this road.

I have lived on this road for all this time and the traffic is worse than ever, when the new school and health centre were planned, someone should have considered the impact.

[James Barber]

Hi heartblock,

Over that same period the population of London has increased by 2 million people form 6.8 to 8.8million. I would suggest that is the largest contributor to the problem. The forecast is another 2 million will be added in the next 25 year.s I would argue that is unsustainable but as things stand this is extremely likely to happen.

Even keeping exactly the same traffic levels that suggests a quarter of current car users have to give up using cars or all current car users have to reduce their car mileage and ownership by a quarter. That's just to stand still.

[PeterW]

"Champion Hill was a wide, sparsely populated and free flowing route towards Denmark Hill, which allowed us a fast, reliable way to bypass your streets"

If I can dive in to respond to this point - I'm afraid none of that is true. And I know because I live there. It's a narrow road, and the traffic was hideous. On the part of the road joining Denmark Hill, cars would regularly go the wrong way around the traffic islands to avoid parked vehicles, while the pavement on the section towards DKH is very narrow, no fun at all to walk down with young kids when cars are bouncing over the speed bumps at 35mph or so (it's a 20mph limit). It used to be hideous to cycle on, and taking kids across the road to school in the morning would often involve parents having to actually stand in the middle to force a break in the traffic.

It's also not "sparsely populated", quite the opposite. There's a series of estates of flats and houses, eg Ruskin park House, Langford Green and the blocks on the DKH side. Just because it's not a row of houses, that doesn't mean no one lives there.

The idea of appealing to people to lobby the council to return things to how they were to "bypass your streets" and make your own driving experience more convenience is a bit of a depressing sentiment. Ending the Champion Hill trial isn't going to make the traffic situation any better, it just shunts in back to a different road. The fact it's my road gives me a vested interest, but I'd feel the same whichever one it was.

I've posted on this in another thread so I won't repeat myself too much, but in brief: if people are genuinely interested in quieter, safer, less polluted streets, then the only way that's going to be achieved is *more* of these kids of schemes, to make it less convenient for people to drive shorter, local journeys, thus incentivising more people to use public transport, or walk or cycle. Of course, one-off schemes aren't ideal, and it would be better if Southwark had the cash/imagination to implement these changes all across SE22 & SE5, so the problem is dealt with holistically. Don't lobby Southwark to bring more cars back to Champion Hill - lobby them to also close off Melbourne Grove and all other residential streets to through traffic. Think big, not small.

If people just blindly oppose every single change that could make the streets more pleasant and human-friendly, then in the end nothing gets done and we all end up having to live with the deadly effects of a transport mode used by a minority of people ? almost two-thirds of Southwark households have no access to a car. Those who do drive are also, statistically, more likely to be richer, but that's an argument for another time.

[intexasatthe moment]

What a lot of exaggeration on both sides ,Champion Hill is neither narrow nor wide .Though if pushed I'd come down on the side of it being considerably wider than many streets in ED .

The pavement on the East ( ? ) side of the part leading to DKH ,outside the estate , is narrow ,The pavement on the opposite side is a normal width .

It's true that parked cars and traffic islands create pinch points but surely there are remedies other than closing the road - restricting parking for one .The road itself is wide enough to allow cars to pass eachother in opposite dorections .Which is certainly not the case on many streets in ED .

[Camberwellse5]

This is extraordinary. Champion Hill is one of the most residential streets in south Southwark. Hundreds of children from the estates and hundreds of young people from Kings College hall walk its streets daily to get to DKH primary, Lyndhurst or the new Charter or to get to university. The road has been a hazard for years as vehicles, many of which are diesel fuelled vans pour out pollution at pushchair height. In addition those treating the road as a rat run travel very fast, ignoring the give way and often driving on the wrong side of the road as they head north in order not to slow down around the bollards. What sort of society decides a few minutes longer in your car is more important than a child?s life. In addition people need to understand the traffic flows which is that Champion Hill is a rat run between Peckham and Brixton. It?s not going to increase traffic flows except along the bus route.

[rupert james]

One should also remember that it was Southwark that put the traffic Isles in when they were never required because they were offered money so they took it.

Residents were against it.

Also it was Southwark that placed the parking spaces that close to the bollards causing the problems.

Before the bollards there was never ever a problem

When did Champion Hill become one of the most residential streets in South Southwark

[PeterW]

"... surely there are remedies other than closing the road - restricting parking for one .The road itself is wide enough to allow cars to pass eachother in opposite dorections .Which is certainly not the case on many streets in ED"

As I said earlier, it really shouldn't be an either/or. Why make life even more noisy and dangerous for people on a residential streets? Making such roads wider or more free-flowing for cars is the sort of thing that was tried in the 60s and 70s. It doesn't make anyone's lives easier except for the drivers, who, again as I mentioned, are in a minority. It does baffle me the the vast majority of road space is given over to this niche pursuit, let alone all the extra room for parking at massively subsidised costs.