secondary school place announcements - how?

[Carbonara]

Shocking that so many ED families have had such bad news, and symptomatic of the problem with availability and choice in Southwark.

Accepting the place offered will not affect your chances of a waiting list place at one of your higher choices. MGolden's comment is incorrect.

Accept the place offered

Make sure you are on the waiting list for every school higher up your list, it is worth double checking that you are on these lists

Find out where you are on that list, there will be lots of movement over the next few months

Prepare your appeal if you have grounds. You can be on the waiting list and appeal, and you can stay on the waiting list even if your appeal fails.

[heber jumble queen]

Just to answer Cora's question - children who have a statement of special needs are given priority through a different system. Statemented children have issues that markedly affect their educational development. SEN issues such as Aspergers / high functioning autism usually have huge impact on children and their social / emotional / educational abilities - but as long as they're progressing along a relatively normal trajectory (in terms of results) then they're not statemented and get no additional support or consideration in the school applications procedure.

I submitted pages of paediatric / ed psych reports from the ASD Clinic at Sunshine House and that apparently was entirely a waste of time.

[Renata Hamvas]

Dear all,

all of Southwark's secondary schools are either Academies or Faith schools and therefore make their own decisions on Admissions. This means that there is a diverse range of admissions criteria in Southwark Schools.

Chocolate, in you duaghter's case, it may be that your first and second choice schools may be ones that don't operate on a simple distance admissions policy. I don't know where you applied but for example, Kingsdale allocates places by lottery and Harris schools and Aske's by banding and distance (so the last place offered distance may be very different between bands). There are also selection by ability in the school's speciality coming into play in some cases eg music or sport.

Heber Jumble Queen, in your case, I would chase a second place at Harris Boy's, but also to check your son's waiting list postion at the other schools that you applied to. They may be very different eg at Kingsdale as it's done on banding/lottery. If one twin secures a place at one of the other schools on your list, than the other one will jump up the waiting list. I am sorry that your sons have been so upset by the new, I hope they can forget it tomorrow and have a great birthday. As one has an SEN you may have grounds to appeal eg if one of the schools you have applied to is more suitable to address his needs than the other schools.

Mrs TP, I think at position 227 you are unlikely to obtain a place at this school. Yes you sussed it correctly, you automatically go on to the waiting list of schools you applied to above your offered school. You could request to go onto the waiting list of other schools too.

ED Mummy, if you get Charter or Kingsdale in the shakedown and you will need to inform Southwark that you are accepting a place at that school and turning down the place at Harris Boy's. Your chances of obtaining a place at Kingsdale or Charter are unaffected by your acceptance of a place at Harris Boys. FYI it has a mixed sixth form with Harris Girl's.

MGolden, yes I agree with you there is much movement on secondary school waiting lists, all the way up until September. So those parents who are unhappy with the school their child/children have been allocated, it is early days yet!

Emily, I have also replied to you on the other thread. On that thread there is information on surgeries to help and advise parents at this difficult time. Kingsdale allocates places by lottery and is very oversubscribed (It's an academy so sets it's own admissions criteria). Living near the school doesn't increase your chances to get a place. You need to be lucky and have been picked out of the hat. Having a lottery system inflates the number of applications a school receives as anyone can apply and they all have a chance. I would suggest you contact Deptford Green and visit it. It is a vibrant mixed school with new buildings, parents have likened it to Kingsdale so you and your son may like it. I know some children from the ED and Nunhead area went there last year. I don't know exactly how many children end up with a different school to the one allocated, but I do know it's a significant number.

Cora-children with SEN and a statement of SEN to support this apply separately and earlier to the main application process. They do have priority in securing a place most suitable to a child's special needs.

Medusa, were you applying for triplets or was this a mixture of in-year and standard year 7 application? Does your SEN child have a statement. If they are triplets and the one with SEN does not have a statement, I would suggest checking waiting list position with the schools you have applied to and if one triplet gets a place, the others would go to the top of the waiting list. Appeal may be worthwhile in this case. Please e-mail me with details.

My computer decided to die last night and therefore I shall have limited access until it is (hopefully) repaired tomorrow. Therefore those of you who need help or advise, please e-mail me rather than pm me.

Renata

[Carbonara]

My friend was told that her child had been offered a full sports scholarship for KD, but has now not been offered a place. They have been offered a place at a lower choice school. How can this happen?

[prickle]

Carbonara Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> My friend was told that her child had been offered

> a full sports scholarship for KD, but has now not

> been offered a place. They have been offered a

> place at a lower choice school. How can this

> happen?

Reassure your friend that her child is not the only one. From past practice, the school 'gives' scholarships to a large number of children, but only the top few are actually offered a place. Same for music.

[Curmudgeon]

It's a lottery in bands as far as I can and the kids with scholarship are just put in a different band but still names out of a hat

It's really not a transparent admissions process at all

[hellosailor]

prickle Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Carbonara Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > My friend was told that her child had been

> offered

> > a full sports scholarship for KD, but has now

> not

> > been offered a place. They have been offered a

> > place at a lower choice school. How can this

> > happen?

>

> Reassure your friend that her child is not the

> only one. From past practice, the school 'gives'

> scholarships to a large number of children, but

> only the top few are actually offered a place.

> Same for music.

Absolutely positively shameful practice

[Curmudgeon]

I don't think it's TOP I think it's lottery so all kids offered a scholarship are put in a hat and they pick out x number

I think lotteries should not be allowed personally

[westof]

Carbonara Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> My friend was told that her child had been offered

> a full sports scholarship for KD, but has now not

> been offered a place. They have been offered a

> place at a lower choice school. How can this

> happen?

We were in this position 2 years ago - I believe this because they are only permitted to select a maximum of 15% via the scholarships, but also offer the scholarships (i.e. free lessons or whatever) to children who get a place via the banded lottery.

So (as with us) your friends son wasn't part of the 15% selected, and also hasn't received a place via the lottery.

In our case, we went on the waiting list - in fact we on both the "Scholarship" waiting list, and the Main waiting list, and got regular emails to let know how our position on each list.

It's very frustrating - but if you phone the school immediately, they may not know yet what position you are. IIRC it took a while, possibly even a few weeks? until all parents had accepted or rejected their offers, before they could quote the initial positions on the waiting lists.

BUT your friend can & should still immediately request to be put on the waiting list (either by email or by phone - I emailed because I prefer to have the response in writing).

Good Luck to your friend!

[MGolden]

westof Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Carbonara Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > My friend was told that her child had been

> offered

> > a full sports scholarship for KD, but has now

> not

> > been offered a place. They have been offered a

> > place at a lower choice school. How can this

> > happen?

>

> We were in this position 2 years ago - I believe

> this because they are only permitted to select a

> maximum of 15% via the scholarships, but also

> offer the scholarships (i.e. free lessons or

> whatever) to children who get a place via the

> banded lottery.

>

> So (as with us) your friends son wasn't part of

> the 15% selected, and also hasn't received a place

> via the lottery.

>

> In our case, we went on the waiting list - in fact

> we on both the "Scholarship" waiting list, and the

> Main waiting list, and got regular emails to let

> know how our position on each list.

>

> It's very frustrating - but if you phone the

> school immediately, they may not know yet what

> position you are. IIRC it took a while, possibly

> even a few weeks? until all parents had accepted

> or rejected their offers, before they could quote

> the initial positions on the waiting lists.

>

> BUT your friend can & should still immediately

> request to be put on the waiting list (either by

> email or by phone - I emailed because I prefer to

> have the response in writing).

>

> Good Luck to your friend!

We were in exactly the ssame position two years ago. There really is a lot of movement although at the time it does feel pretty awful.

Good luck to your friend.

[crescent]

I am reading this thread with an increasing amount of dread... and my oldest is only in Y3! Do I have to consider moving out of London?

I live in the southern most of tip of Southwark: while I pay council tax to Southwark, my kids are at a Lewisham primary, and our allocated GPs is Paxton Green - officially Lambeth I believe?

Our closest secondary school by a country mile is Kingsdale - 0.64 miles as crow flies. But this school operates a lottery as admissions criteria, not distance. However, someone who lives 3 streets away from Charter or ED Harris boys gets 2 bites of the cherry: they have as much chance of getting into Kingsdale as we do - but also have a chance of getting into Charter/ ED Harris - while we don't have a hope as we're so far away.

Oh, I know life isn't fair, and it's all an illusion of choice...but it does seem like we are particularly poorly served down this corner of the borough - our closest school doesn't work on distance and we don't have any other choices.

Feel trapped at this stage: can't afford private, don't want to move lout of London, and fail to see how it makes sense that a kid in Stockwell (for example!) gets into Kingsdale but local neighbourhood kids can't...

[westof]

Crescent, it would actually benefit you if more schools started to operate a lottery admission, at least then you would have a chance at those schools as well. If enough parents lobbied for that, I wonder if it could happen?

There are many advantages in London to going to a school that isn't 200 yards down the road, yet is still only a 15 minute bus ride away (walkable on a snow day ;-) ) & with children from a wider area - not least meeting a variety of children from different backgrounds, different areas & a bit less obsessed with their own postcodes. I wish more not less children could have that opportunity, with London such a densely populated area distance criteria at secondary school level can lead to some very odd anomalies.

It would be a shame to move out of London since there are such good schools here, but of course that is no consolation until you actually get into one of them.

A lot can change in a few years - I have heard good things about Norwood School (south Lambeth but I think near to you) especially since it's gone co-ed.

[tiddles]

also Elm Green doing very well and I know people who are there (that is in your direction crescent)

[DenmotherSmith]

Last year we received our fourth choice HBED, son was thrilled as many of his friends had a place there, I was less sure due to it being an unknown entity, without GCSE results and (at the time )full OFSTED, so we accepted the place, and remained on the waiting lists for the other choices. Both lewisham schools (Askes and Forrest Hill Boys, sent letters out within days, stating our position in the waiting list, and why we had not received a place ie distance, banding etc.The Southwark school, Kingdale was much slower with a letter not making an appearance for some weeks and only stating we were on the waiting list and in which band, I kept his name on both FHB and Askes lists right up untill Christmas! just wanted to be sure he was really settled before removing him from the waiting lists.

I am soooo happy that the sibling policy means I can (kind of) rest easy for son no. 2 next year, at least we will have a place we are sure of!

[emilydrab]

Hello everyone - god a lot of tears have been shed over the last few days!!! It's a stressful time, and the system doesn't help. Crazy that we're encouraged to think we've got a choice really. May as well admit we just don't. I've managed to calm down a bit I want to take stock of the situation - I got a letter from Deptford Green and a DVD about the school. It actually looks amazing (remember I never actually visited it before, just bunged it down on my form for really no reason!!!). Could it be a Kingsdale in the making? What do people think? I know a promotional DVD will make the best of things, but looks like a lovely school, the headmaster seems so switched on - the curriculum looks great, the building looks futuristic (brand new ?32 million building) and really quite incredible, the website is buzzy and busy. I loved Kingsdale so much, but this feels similar. It's a mixed school (which is really my problem with Harrid ED) So, I realise I need to check it out properly - put all prejudice and the hype about "good" schools and "bad" schools to one side. Maybe this is fate, maybe, weirdly, this will be the perfect school for my son - just by a weird stroke of fate. So I'll report back what happens. Oh maybe I'll be home educating... watch this space!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks to Renata for making such an effort to help everyone on this post, it is appreciated. EDF is so helpful!!!

PS I phoned Southwark admissions and they told me they couldn't give me any info on what number my son was on in waiting lists until 16 March, and Harris boys ED didn't have it either. So Mrs TP my friend, how did you find out about what number you were? Do some schools have the list already?

[westof]

I don't know anything about Deptford Green, but I remember parents this time last year being given that choice, so I wonder if any took it up & could enlighten you.

I know there are some Kingsdale kids from Deptford way - I think one parent may even have said that if Deptford Green had been as good as it is now, a few years ago, she would rather have sent her child there simply because it was closer.

Would you be able to go & visit even though you've missed the open days?

(& yes we had tears shed when it was our turn to go through this - we got our letter first thing in the morning & my child ended up locked in the bathroom in floods refusing to go to school & face friends who'd got their choices).

[Carbonara]

MGolden - thank you for the KD scholarship explanation, that must be what has happened. They have been allocated a school which is generally thought of as a 6th choice, but are being objective an realising that actually there is the potential for their child to do very well there.

[championofthehill]

Have just had a quick read through this thread and it brings back the horrors we went through last year. My daughter was not allocated a school that we were happy with, and she was not alone. Only a minority of children in her class were given schools they had put high up on their lists, and many were despairing.

After a hideous few months of appeals and waiting list movement though, most children ended up at schools they and their parents were happy with. It is an awful system, and one of the worst elements for me was the lack of communication from Southwark Education Services. From what I have read above, it seems a bit better this year. It took a long time for Kingsdale to release its waiting list information and there was confusion over banding - they have seperate waiting lists for each band and another for scholarships, so movement can be slow.

We tried really hard not to let our daughter be aware of our stress, and it was hard for her to see her friends gradually get places they wanted and go off to induction days. And on the last day of the summer term she was offered a place at Kingsdale (which had been our first choice) where she is now blissfully happy.

It's very hard to believe at this stage, but March is early days and there is a lot of movement over the next few months. Also, many children I know are now very happy at schools they didn't initially want, and wouldn't change even if a place came up.

Don't panic!

[Mrs TP]

Through this whole process I kept hanging on to the thought that we have all been to secondary school and survived.

I went to an average, if not shitty, mixed comprehensive on the outskirts of Liverpool a million years ago, where you did CSEs unless you proved you were better and then were entered for O' levels (oh I am so old).

From there I went on to a traditional Uni to do a BSc (one of two in my year who went straight to uni, most of the rest left to have babies) and then moved to London for Post Grad. Now I have thrown my education in the bin (as my parents think) and am a v. happy full time mum to my brood, shamefully not conceived until my 30s - most of my school friends assumed I was gay.

Secondary school in tough whereever and we all got through it.

The problem at the moment is the false pretence of choice - there is no real choice just the invitation to provide a list of the least offensive to your own particular calling.

It has been a bloody tough 6mths but we got through it and are looking forward to Sept 2012 and the challenges 2ndary school brings - I think.

Cheers to all yr 6 parents, however the 1st March left you feeling - sure we will all survive the system.

[Halleb36]

Appealing Against Admissions

?

Admissions and appeals are surely the educational challenge to beat all others. They test a parent?s strength to the limit. To borrow from Ruyard Kipling ? If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs ?then yours should be the school place!?

?

If you have received the devastating news that your child has not been offered a place at their preferred school ? don?t panic. Whether its at primary or secondary level, we know this is a time of terrible trial and tribulation. You are facing a bleak schooling prospect, and the very real possibility of an uncertain Appeal. Whichever way you look at it, this Appeals process feels and sounds like a serious ordeal.

?

To explain, the educational powers that be acknowledge that all pupils deserve a genuine schooling preference in their area. If this cannot be met, then parents or carers have the right to challenge the decision not to offer their preferred school and for their challenge to be judged impartially. The Appeals Panel hearing is the official channel providing this opportunity and your appeal will need to be heard by early July 2012. This deadline leaves you little time to prepare your case.

?

In essence the Panel is tasked to listen to your case, review your evidence and speak to your witnesses. They will also need to evaluate the admission evidence from the other side of the classroom fence. This is why it is so crucial that your case is presented in the best possible way. There can be no definite outcomes or easy cheats through this particular minefield.

?

There?s no getting away from it, the whole process will seem intimidating and confusing. You may be worried about what to expect, where to find information, how to prepare your case, and indeed what is a good case! The only thing that is for sure, is that you will be the only person in that room who hasn?t had any training for their role and yet no one has as much to lose as you.

?

We know you will need a very big helping hand to win your case. Our organisation ?Making Experiences Count? is one of a new generation of parent training organisations based solely on the Admissions Appeal process. Our core objective is to steer you through the stormy waters of hearings. We do this in our uniquely parent-friendly way, incorporating knowledge and understanding from specialists who are also parents.

?

Currently our highly skilled team consists of chairs and members of Schools Admission Appeals panels. ?Between them they hold a veritable treasure trove of invaluable insights into the decision-making. To fully maximise your potential, we can give you the best inside intelligence available, and do so in easy-to-understand language.

?

Whilst it?s never going to be child?s play, we should help put you right at the top of Appeal?s class.

?

http://www.schoolsappeal.com/

[jay66]

Emilydrab

We went to look at Deptford Green school back in September and really liked it. For a start it is not an academy (incredibly rare these days) and when we asked, the deputy head say they have no intention of getting academy status. To me, it felt like a down to earth, unpretentious school. Their existing school buildings were old and in need of updating and they were hoping that the new school building (which looked great but not finished when we saw it) would attract more applicants. They had a nice way of easing primary kids into secondary school (certain lessons were taught by the same teacher, similar to primary school) and their provision for dyslexic children looked really well-thought out. Every child had access to a laptop.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if people started noticing it and it became a highly sought after option.

[suniil]

Just sent out the refusal letter to HABS ASKE'S, so a musical place is up for grabs for those in waiting list

[emilydrab]

Just to fill anyone in on my news! Visited Deptford Green today (see posts above for backstory) and was utterly impressed by everything we saw. The head is brilliant, the school is vibrant, exciting things are happening everywhere you look, kids engaged, teachers passionate and funny. And this was in the crappy old building that's about to be demolished!! Come Sept all of this energy is going to be in a brand new gorgeous building, so I'm now so happy that's where my son is going. So everything seems to have worked out, I guess my point is to be open minded - schools people aren't shouting from the rooftops about (at this point in EAst Dulwich anyway!) can still be the place you want your child to be (although still think it's crazy that local kids aren't getting into Harris Boys if they want to...)

[EDmummy]

@Emilydrab, have you seen where you are on the waiting list for HBED? There is still a lot of movement to happen. We were lucky to get the school, are 5 mins walk away and our son is in the top set (if he performed in NVR test in line with grades) but I do know people who are also top set and are hoping to be near top of waiting lists for other schools. I'm sure the office at the school will tell you where you are on the waiting list so you can rule it out completely or not.

[westof]

emilydrab, that's lovely news about Deptford Green. (& presumably even better if you might end up being able to choose between two schools you like, though that can bring it's own stress as you have to make a decision all over again...)

I've just looked through to the newsletters on the Deptford Green website (slow Friday at work ;-)) & it looks like there's loads of good stuff going on there, great to know your experiences back that up having visited.