An apology to all the mums (and dads) Of ED

[randombloke]

I thought several posts here including the OP, LondonMix, Pickle, Nanny, Otta and Michael P?s posts were eminently sensible. Times have changed since my son was a toddler and people now expect to be able to take children into Public Houses, coffee shops etc. He?s now 23 and luckily, he was an easy child to manage. Stick him in the ball pool at the back of the local pub on a summer?s evening in the Yorkshire town he grew up in and he was happy as a clam.

He has recently had occasion to work in a very popular Public House on Lordship Lane and was incensed at the selfish, haughty attitude of some of the clientele, particularly those with children whom he regarded as being out of control.

As he pointed out last week, it?s the sense of entitlement and self-righteousness that he finds distasteful. For example: arriving at 7:00pm and complaining that after 7 hours Sunday lunch service there is no roast beef left. The clue is in the name: since when do you have lunch at 7:00pm? Then losing your temper when informed that unfortunately it was against the law for him to heat up a babies bottle is hardly the most reasonable of behaviours.

At the risk of opening myself up to a huge tide of disapprobation, I do find myself becoming incredibly irritated by the accusatory tone of the question ?Do you actually have children?? As if the mere principle of having progeny suddenly turns you into an expert on childcare/socially acceptable behaviour and impervious to reasonable criticism. The inference being that anyone who does not (have children) is in no way allowed an opinion of their own, or god forbid, to complain.

The issue is one of understanding and tolerance from both sets of people, i.e. parents and non-parents. Awareness is key, just because you feel strongly that children should be accepted in public places ? la Europe, it does not necessarily mean that everyone feels the same way.

I lose count of the examples of plainly stupid parenting I see in caf?s, supermarkets and pubs. I have to bite my tongue when I see children being ignored by their parents who are more concerned with chatting to friends than giving their children the attention they require. Like Pickle, I also see parents tolerating unacceptable behaviour by children who should be ignored or disciplined.

Tired, fractious children running riot and behaving in an antisocial manner is down to a lack of forethought by their parents. It?s simple common sense. If you drag your child around a park for a nice walk, remember that a toddler has to take about three paces to your one pace. So if you walk them 1 mile, to them it?s effectively 3 miles and at a pace they can?t sustain. Imagine an 18 foot giant dragging you around Dulwich Park 3 times faster than you want to go and then ignoring you whilst said giant eats their lunch and drinks with its? chums. Do you think you?d not kick off?

Nobody wants to go back to the days of children being scrubbed by Nanny and brought down to entertain the dinner guests, but common sense and give and take is surely what is needed.

[steveo]

I'd never kick off with a drunk giant in the room

[LondonMix]

Otta Wrote:

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>

> Personally I can't for the life of me understand

> why people take their kids to the pub. I can't

> relax in the pub when my kids are there, and

> frankly, the chance to go to the pub these days is

> a blessed chance to rid myself of them for a

> couple of hours!

Well that's the point really. People who try and relax (as if kiddies weren't actually with them) when they do go to the pub are the ones that irritate us all!

[Otta]

Indeed LondonMix!

Randombloke "it?s the sense of entitlement and self-righteousness that he finds distasteful." He and I both!!!!

When I see small babies left in prams for ages, even when they cry, I want to scream at parents "Pick him/her up for the love of God!". I'd pick them up myself if it wouldn't get me arrested!

[The Minkey]

I too agree with Nanny et al. I don't get annoyed by parents with well-behaved kids, or parents making the effort to manage their kids when they kick off but I do get irritated with those parents who seem oblivious to their children's bad behaviour. I lived for several years in Spain where it was normal to see whole families out together, the difference being kids weren't allowed to run riot ruining everyone else's enjoyment. I think it's great that parents have so much freedom these days as to where to go with the kids but consideration cuts both ways. I want to be able to enjoy my time out too.

[Gidget]

What is the etiquette on how long to leave a baby crying at the top of their lungs before parent takes them outside to try to shush/comfort them? Or is it now considered ok to do it inside the venue without any consideration for other people?

[Monkey]

I don't recognise the East Dulwich some of you describe, I really don't.

Chill, ED residents, chill.

[Voyageur]

Monkey Wrote:

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> I don't recognise the East Dulwich some of you

> describe, I really don't.

>

> Chill, ED residents, chill.

You don't recognise the scenarios people have described as a problem or you have never experienced such a scenario when out and about in pubs/restaurants?

[Otta]

Heh heh, couldn't resist highlighting this thread to the good people of the family room.

[Monkey]

I am sure I have seen badly behaved children but nothing bad enough for me to actually remember it. I find children in ED pleasant and well behaved. And I am sure that I have never tripped over a buggy.

[Voyageur]

Maybe you have just been lucky or maybe you have high tolerance levels - I would personally appreciate having the latter but it just ain't going to happen.

[Alan Medic]

Otta Wrote:

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> Heh heh, couldn't resist highlighting this thread

> to the good people of the family room.

And it had > 100 views in a couple of hours.........without one comment though.You think the family roomites don't like to venture into the Lounge? I don't think it's half as scary a place as that room is.

[Otta]

Gidget Wrote:

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> What is the etiquette on how long to leave a baby

> crying at the top of their lungs before parent

> takes them outside to try to shush/comfort them?

> Or is it now considered ok to do it inside the

> venue without any consideration for other people?

Don't know about etiquette, but for me, if they cry, I pick them up, if they are still crying after a minute I take them outside, and if I can't calm them I leave.

[Voyageur]

In my extended family if we were out at a restaurant or similar, and one of the tots starts creating a din for whatever reason, said tot would be taken out of the main public area without delay - and brought back in when all was peaceful. It certainly reinforced the fact - as kids got older - that if they created a din then they had access to their din dins removed until they buttoned it. Worked a treat.

[oimissus]

From before I became a mum, this occasion in The George in Borough High Street: I was having leaving drinks with very good chums off to Oz. A couple came in with a crawling baby; this was at around 6.30pm on a Friday evening, so it was pretty rammed, and why anyone with a baby would want to go there I can't imagine. It was quieter where we were but they let the baby crawl around the floor which I though was just disgusting as it's pretty spit'n'sawdust in there AND they were right beside the gents. And then, to keep the baby occupied, the dad started playing a flute. I think I tolerated this for about 20 minutes before pointing out what was wrong with this whole scenario (I was a bit pissed by this point), which they took umbrage to, but they did leave pretty soon after. My gaster was well and truly flabbered.

[uncleglen]

I am not sorry that I told your brat off in Sainsbury's when she was poking her finger through all the cling film on the mushroom packets- you should have been watching her. One of these days a child is going to get picked up from there while mummy/daddy is trying to choose which lettuce to choose.

[Polly D]

Having watched Friends With Kids this afternoon on a wet maternity leave afternoon I found myself thinking "sh*t, parents can seem soooo self-absorbed, and so very tired and grumpy". Since it's a little late to turn back now I am vowing to be extra chilled out with child no 2.

Anyway, you don't want to know about that but just to add: I have friends with and without children. When it comes to, let's say weekend social events in ED, the ones with kids will suggest kid-friendly sociable activities based sensibly around communal nap times, thus ensuring as many people as possible are happy, be it running round the park & playground, with a coffee after for grown ups and beans on toast in the cafe, say in Peckham rye park, for the kids. Great, might be some minor tantrums, bit of mess, me wincing with guilt at the bloke on the next table with his iPad and shattered peace...and so on. But knowing that what's usually best is putting the kids to bed and settling down for the evening with wine and the telly at home, disturbing nobody.

However, when friends without kids suggest Sunday lunch, or similar, my heart sinks a little. I know it won't work, I know my son wants fish fingers at midday, not roast dinner at 2. I know he'll get bored, no matter how many books and toys we bring, and we won't really be able to chat properly. Some days we are really lucky and he's the picture of a well-behaved child (asleep) but I'm on tenterhooks wondering when the sh*t is about to hit the fan. But I say yes to these invites because a) it's v nice to see my friends, and b) if I say "oh that won't suit my 'darling son' aren't I going to be accused of being precious?

[Voyageur]

Not if you take your child outside for a while if he starts making a racket and won't pipe down in a restaurant full of people trying to chill out with friends. Or maybe suggest meeting for a coffee somewhere child friendly instead.

[Husker]

Kids go into pubs - some of them are annoying, some of them aren't. Just like adults really.

Why anyone lives somewhere like East Dulwich, a part of London that is known for the density of young families and the cafes/pubs/restaurants that cater for them, and then moans about kids is beyond me.

[Otta]

no one on this thread has moaned about kids.

[ClareC]

Polly D Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Having watched Friends With Kids this afternoon on

> a wet maternity leave afternoon I found myself

> thinking "sh*t, parents can seem soooo

> self-absorbed, and so very tired and grumpy".

> Since it's a little late to turn back now I am

> vowing to be extra chilled out with child no 2.

>

> Anyway, you don't want to know about that but just

> to add: I have friends with and without children.

> When it comes to, let's say weekend social events

> in ED, the ones with kids will suggest

> kid-friendly sociable activities based sensibly

> around communal nap times, thus ensuring as many

> people as possible are happy, be it running round

> the park & playground, with a coffee after for

> grown ups and beans on toast in the cafe, say in

> Peckham rye park, for the kids. Great, might be

> some minor tantrums, bit of mess, me wincing with

> guilt at the bloke on the next table with his iPad

> and shattered peace...and so on. But knowing that

> what's usually best is putting the kids to bed and

> settling down for the evening with wine and the

> telly at home, disturbing nobody.

>

> However, when friends without kids suggest Sunday

> lunch, or similar, my heart sinks a little. I know

> it won't work, I know my son wants fish fingers at

> midday, not roast dinner at 2. I know he'll get

> bored, no matter how many books and toys we bring,

> and we won't really be able to chat properly. Some

> days we are really lucky and he's the picture of a

> well-behaved child (asleep) but I'm on tenterhooks

> wondering when the sh*t is about to hit the fan.

> But I say yes to these invites because a) it's v

> nice to see my friends, and b) if I say "oh that

> won't suit my 'darling son' aren't I going to be

> accused of being precious?

Totally agree Polly D, very true!

We eat out with our two (age 1 and 2) fairly frequently but always go at times to suit them, generally lunch time @ 12 when they are soon to be hungry but not tired. we always choose somewhere child friendly too, ideally with fast service.

We reserve the more adult restaurants for evenings we have a babysitter! It really isn't fun going somewhere inappropriate and being on tender hooks!

I think it's good for children to eat out but totally agree you need to be considerate to other diners. On the odd occasion one or both have misbehaved we have removed them from the restaurant and left ASAP! I can only think of this happening twice, both times on holiday and attempting an evening meal albeit early!

[canela]

I had both my kids in Spain and lived there until eldest was 5 and it was so much easier. I never once got a stare or bad word or was made to feel bad if my little ones were being "challenging" i.e. hideous. but then we only went to family places. maybe the difference was that the family places were just normal places that everyone accepted would be full of kids at the weekend, and served really good food anyway - rather than cafes and bars selling themselves as "family friendly" when that just means they have a high chair. I think it the owners genuinely want to run a family venue that will be noted in the whole atmosphere.

tho i sometimes think it's maybe just that kids don't get noticed so much in Spain because all the adults are shouting and making lots of noise too! used to give my poor Mum a headache when she came to visit but it was fun...

[Cassius]

Husker Wrote:

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> Kids go into pubs - some of them are annoying,

> some of them aren't. Just like adults really.

>

> Why anyone lives somewhere like East Dulwich, a

> part of London that is known for the density of

> young families and the cafes/pubs/restaurants that

> cater for them, and then moans about kids is

> beyond me.

Funnily enough East Dulwich and some of its residents were here BEFORE it became a mecca for young families.

[????]

Crumbs and there was me thinking that East Dulwich was a Victorian suburb built for families rather than a hipster singledom spot that has recently been invaded by families......

[Mick Mac]

Ah good point Mr Quids. You are probably old enough to remember the 1880s when most of the housing stock was built, so you have the advantage on us younger folk on that one.