London Overground line extension timetable

[benmorg]

edcam Wrote:

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> I know the DH-Victoria route is the quickest for

> the overground section but if you want to get into

> the West End the DH-LB-CX route is faster. I've

> done both for years and when you take into account

> (particularly at busy times) how far Victoria

> really is from the West End and how busy the tube

> is from there, the LB/CX route is much quicker.

The direct service from Denmark Hill to London Bridge is being cut. Your route to CX will involve 4 trains as you will now have to change at Peckham Rye.

[LondonMix]

James, this is a real issue for our family and I have to disagree with your comment on travel to Whitehall and most of that part of London. Depending on exactly which building you are going to, taking the ELL to Canada Water and going to Westminster via the Jubilee line or going to London Bridge and then on to Charing Cross should be faster than going via Victoria. In fact, depending on the time of day, my husband will typically take the train to Elephant and then a bus from there as the quickest route into that part of town (he has flexible start times like most civil servants). Pimlico and Victoria itself are the only areas where you are really better off going in via Victoria and there will still be trains to Victoria, just less of them.

Anyone who actually commutes via Victoria knows that diverting traffic away is a must. Despite the supposedly short journey between Victoria and Pimlico / Westminster the crowding means at best you have to let the first tube train go by in the rush hour and at worst they will shut the tube entrance for a while to prevent dangerous overcrowding. My husband when he does opt for the Victoria route takes a bus to avoid the mayhem.

Anyhow, I don?t think that anyone knows what the full impact will be until it?s up and running and people start exploring their options. While you argue that employees from Whitehall will be less interested in living here, more creative / media / tech employees based in East London (who already appear to makeup a portion of the local population) will be more attracted. Focusing only on the negative is counterproductive.

All things being equal, we would be better off with both the SLL (or proposed Bellingham service) and the ELLX. If we have to choose, I think it?s too soon to say that getting the ELLX and losing the SLL is a net loss for the area. Given the push for more residential development in the area, we should continue to advocate for improvement to our transport infrastructure as South London becomes more densely occupied. Still, I think as good citizens we have to be honest and weigh things up fairly.

[benmorg]

James Barber Wrote:

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> The inner South London Line is a terrible loss to

> the area. Many people who work in the Viuctoria

> Whitehall area will be affected and it will make

> our area far less appealing for such employees.

> Again South London is being sacrificed to help

> others. The fact osuth London has so many viaducts

> and cuttings dislocating it with resulting issues

> is ignored.

>

> It's a sorry state of affairs where neither Ken or

> Boris have clearly explained why they initiated or

> agreed to this. Both have hid behind it's the

> national govt fault whether it be Labour or the

> coalition.

It's massive downgrade for Denmark Hill and therefore Camberwell. Other parts of S. London aren't badly affected.

[pilsbury]

Sort of related - does anyone know when the step free access will finally be ready at DH?

[njc97]

The other issue with Charing X is that for 2 years during the London Bridge improvements, Charing X trains wont stop at LB. So it's a tube or Cannon St the tube instead.

[Southeast Twenty Stu]

The end of London Bridge trains from/to Denmark Hill is a bigger issue than the reduction in the number of trains to Victoria IMO. This line provides a direct connection between two of South London's major teaching hospitals (Kings and Guys).

I must admit, I hadn't even picked up on the changes to Charing Cross trains which will no longer stop at London Bridge.

Overall, it seems to me that Camberwell in particular will end up more poorly connected as a result of these changes.

[edcam]

I didn't know about the Charing X issue either. That is a pain in the arse.

[titch juicy]

edcam Wrote:

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> I didn't know about the Charing X issue either.

> That is a pain in the arse.

That really is a pain in the arse

[LondonMix]

The temporary changes to Charing X service is a pain. For getting to Waterloo I?ll either go ELL to Canada Water and then switch to the jubilee line (should be 25 min give or take ) or train to Elephant and then Bakerloo line to Charing X when I need to get to that part of town which is about the same once you take into account all the waiting time and walking around.

I agree that Demark Hill losing service to London Bridge is probably a bigger deal than a reduction in Victoria service particularly the loss of the direct connection between Kings and Guys.

[LondonMix]

.

[Bic Basher]

I've noticed nobody has mentioned the 185 bus between DH and Victoria, particularly as a late-night alternative to the SLL. It really doesn't take that much time off-peak than getting the train and runs every 12 minutes until the final bus, instead of waiting 30 mins for the existing train. (After the final bus, the 36 and N136 operate between Victoria and Camberwell Green)

As for London Bridge, it'll be the Charing Cross platform closed first, followed by the Cannon Street platform with trains running through the station. Plans are in place, which will allow NR ticket holders to use the tube between London Bridge and Charing Cross/Cannon Street during the closure.

Regarding the the Guys/Kings issue. Route 40 operates every 8 mins during the day between the two hospitals with wheelchair access and with the improvements to DH station, including lifts, once completed, it'll be easier access wise to use the Jubilee line at London Bridge changing at Canada Water and latterly Denmark Hill which will all have lifts.

[James Barber]

Hi Bic Basher,

Of course you're absolutely correct.

But a significant part of the populace refuse to take buses. They'd sooner not make a journey or travel by car.

Hence why numbers of journeys by public transport shoot up when new rail, tube or tram lines are created. One exception to this has been guided bus ways - but even then they've not increased as much as you'd expect from a new train line.

Sadly few travel experts take this into account. Hence why we get daft decisions such as closing a train line in inner London when no tube or tram alternative exists.

[Penguin68]

I don't commute by bus, but do often take the bus to get into town in the early evening; about one in five journeys is disrupted, most frequently by buses which change their destination during the journey (i.e. stop before the originally advertised stop). On one journey to Picadilly that actually happened twice, with one bus only travelling 2 stops before stopping for good (it hadn't broken down, the driver received fresh orders).

So I do understand why some travellers, who actually want to get somewhere for a particular time, prefer to use more certain methods - car, taxi, train.

When buses work they are great (albeit quite slow to get anywhere) - when they don't and you're dumped out - or they never even arrive at all - you are waiting in the cold and wet and may well chose not to make the bus mistake again.

[LondonMix]

Let's keep this in perspective. Regarding the Victoria service, this only affects people who actually work in Victoria itself or Pimlico who can't leave the office of a weekday before 7pm and Sundays. At that time of the evening, bus service is much more reliable and faster than during rushour. Also, as Renata already mentioned, for those who really hate the bus, they can travel to Blackfriars in 10 minutes and then take a 10 min train the Denmark Hill etc.

This additional journey time of an evening and Sunday vs. the much shorter commuting times all day for people who work / play in Canary Wharf and East London might be better characterized as a trade-off rather than daft decision making.

[Medley]

LondonMix - some muddled thinking there.

Buses - the troubles are:

1. unpredictable and long journey times in the peak

2. the other passengers

3. the heaving and jolting

4. terminating short etc - as post above.

The good news is:

1. the frequency

2. the 24 hour running or turning into a night bus

3. they're cheap!

4. off peak they can be very quick

[LondonMix]

Why muddled thinking? People travelling into Victoria will only need to rely on the bus off-peak. The Victoria line will continue to run during peak hours and Saturdays...

[Rolo Tomasi]

Removed. Posted elsewhere.

[bil]

Bic Basher Wrote:

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> I've noticed nobody has mentioned the 185 bus

> between DH and Victoria, particularly as a

> late-night alternative to the SLL. It really

> doesn't take that much time off-peak than getting

> the train and runs every 12 minutes until the

> final bus, instead of waiting 30 mins for the

> existing train. (After the final bus, the 36 and

> N136 operate between Victoria and Camberwell

> Green)

>

> As for London Bridge, it'll be the Charing Cross

> platform closed first, followed by the Cannon

> Street platform with trains running through the

> station. Plans are in place, which will allow NR

> ticket holders to use the tube between London

> Bridge and Charing Cross/Cannon Street during the

> closure.

>

> Regarding the the Guys/Kings issue. Route 40

> operates every 8 mins during the day between the

> two hospitals with wheelchair access and with the

> improvements to DH station, including lifts, once

> completed, it'll be easier access wise to use the

> Jubilee line at London Bridge changing at Canada

> Water and latterly Denmark Hill which will all

> have lifts.

I waited 20 minutes for the 185 last Thursday ,it was completely full (during rush hour) as were the two buses behind it (176 x2). I got on the fourth bus which wasn't the 185 I wanted but didn't want to chance it. The commuter bus service is heaving with the strain. The same problem exists in Camberwell, with people unable to get on to 2 or 3 buses which are full. We really need adequate alternatives i.e. train, tube. The buses are slow and don't get me started about passing through Camberwell on the way home to ED, where often the bus is stopped because someone decides not to pay.

I'm glad that you see the bus as a good travel option, I wish I had your patience. To me it is slow and quite an unpleasant experience. I can't wait until the day I never have to use the bus again (I live in hope; please let it be soon!)

[Bic Basher]

bil Wrote:

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>

> I waited 20 minutes for the 185 last Thursday ,it

> was completely full (during rush hour) as were the

> two buses behind it (176 x2). I got on the fourth

> bus which wasn't the 185 I wanted but didn't want

> to chance it. The commuter bus service is heaving

> with the strain. The same problem exists in

> Camberwell, with people unable to get on to 2 or 3

> buses which are full. We really need adequate

> alternatives i.e. train, tube. The buses are slow

> and don't get me started about passing through

> Camberwell on the way home to ED, where often the

> bus is stopped because someone decides not to pay.

>

>

> I'm glad that you see the bus as a good travel

> option, I wish I had your patience. To me it is

> slow and quite an unpleasant experience. I can't

> wait until the day I never have to use the bus

> again (I live in hope; please let it be soon!)

Which is why I suggested it as a late night option, rather than being used during rush-hour when the Southeastern services from Victoria will still operate.

I think there is bus snobbery among certain people, despite those buses being well used in ED.

[Applespider]

Another problem for those advocating multiple hops and diversions is that for those of us who don't use the trains all that frequently and so don't have a Travelcard, coming out of the National Rail Network and onto a bus/Tube (or even just swapping buses) is another PAYG fare. Once you're in the barriers of the Tube Network, it's one fare regardless of interchanges - and even switching between DLR/Tube counts as one fare.

Surely with the tracking technology of Oyster/bus countdown trackers, there could be a way to reconcile bus journeys overnight and allow transfers onto the Tube network/another bus within 60 minutes of the start of the journey to have the cheaper journey discounted.

[bil]

Applespider Wrote:

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> Another problem for those advocating multiple hops

> and diversions is that for those of us who don't

> use the trains all that frequently and so don't

> have a Travelcard, coming out of the National Rail

> Network and onto a bus/Tube (or even just swapping

> buses) is another PAYG fare. Once you're in the

> barriers of the Tube Network, it's one fare

> regardless of interchanges - and even switching

> between DLR/Tube counts as one fare.

>

> Surely with the tracking technology of Oyster/bus

> countdown trackers, there could be a way to

> reconcile bus journeys overnight and allow

> transfers onto the Tube network/another bus within

> 60 minutes of the start of the journey to have the

> cheaper journey discounted.

Good point

[LondonMix]

Unless your final destination is within walking distance of Victoria station, most people already have to make a transfer, which is why using the ELL plus the Jubilee line for many will be as quick / as cheap as their current journey via Victoria.

If you do work within walking distance of Victoria station, then continue to use the Victoria line up until 7pm in the evening and on Saturdays. If you want to go to London Bridge as your final destination, take the train from Denmark Hill to Peckham and then get on a LB train- this will still be charged as one journey so no extra costs.

If you are one of the people who unfortunately work within walking distance of Victoria station and have to commute after 7pm you can take a single pay as you go journey on the bus which that time of the evening is fairly quick and reliable (and cheaper than the train). If you really hate the bus, then you might have to pay a bit more to get home when you work late of a weekday evening.

I know people hate change but the opening of the ELL is hardly the disaster some of you are making it out to be!

Edited to add that free transfers within a specified period should be implemented and is pretty standard in other major cities.

[James Barber]

What a rubbish public transport system when it loses significant utility at 7pm and is halving its frequency on a key route.

[LondonMix]

James, is it impossible for you to wait to see the impact before condemning the changes?

There are clearly advantages and disadvantages to the changes and no one can claim to know the net benefit / loss with total certainty until it?s up and running. You act like the ELL that Denmark Hill is gaining is totally useless. It?s a tradeoff, and it?s a tradeoff that is likely to benefit a number of local residents.

Why don?t you wait to see passenger numbers on the remaining Victoria service and then advocate for an increase in service / frequency when you actually have some data behind you that its necessary to implement the Victoria-Bellingham option? The new route options provided by the ELL will change travel patterns and should reduce the demand on the Victoria line service.

[Jeremy]

Interesting to see that a "Crossrail 2" north-south link is under discussion.

Will it come to SE London? Will it fuck.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4572e4d4-a11e-11e1-9fbd-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2COGrpYz2