New East Dulwich Primary School 161/80 + 102

[simonethebeaver]

Are we not allowed reservations? When a body that is broadly supportive of academies raises concerns about the way they operate, is it not permissible to discuss them on here? Some of them reflect issues already raised on this thread.

[James Barber]

Hi David,

Sorry, I'm being terribly pragmatic.

I'm a local councillor. Since Tony Blair introuced Academies they've been the only show in town.

Whether I like them or not my personal preference will have no impact on the national policy. BUT I and my colleagues could have said we wont work with them, etc. The outcome insufficient good primary school places for local residents OR the Labour led Southwark proposals of ever more bulge classes in schools that can longer cope with them.

Now as it happen I was personally dead against academies and the more recent free school flavour of them. And you're right no evidence to suggest academies are universally a good thing - quite the opposite. You have to consider who is planning to open a school and what their track record is.

Hence why I'm delighted we persauded Harris Federation to apply to create a new primary school once we found sufficient local support. Of the 10 schools they've started and that have been rated by Ofsted 9 went straight to outstanding and having met the chief executive several times I'm clear he was pretty miffed that the tenth was 'only' rated good.

In their application they've set themselves the target of being in the top 10% of primary schools for attainment and pupil progression.

If Southwark were able to create new primary school their is no way a politician of whichever party running Southwark would have been brave enough to set such a target. So I'm now a supporter of free school and academies when the provider is going to produce a really good school and set and from their track record meet really high targets.

As for Local Authorities. Under the Localiam act their is nothing to stop them applying to central government for the ability to create new schools. If my group were in power we would apply. But I'm pretty clear we'd also be working closely with excellent providers who can create great schools rather than bulging beyond good results for our children.

[LondonMix]

So where do things stand? The total number of new primary school places needed for the area is 260 from what I understand. The Harris Primary school (being a 2 form entry) would deal with 60 of this 260 place shortfall. That would still necessitate 7 bulge classes a year throughout this part of South London.

Renata, are you still exploring alternatives to such a high number of bulge classes? If all 3 schools you are in discussion with expanded, that would reduce the shortfall from 200 to 110? Can you please also respond to my earlier questions regarding timing and funding?

Thanks,

LM

[James Barber]

Hi LondonMix,

My understanding is up to 235 extrs places will be needed by 2016.

Harris have applied for one two form entry school. But I will during the interview stage ask about expanding it to three form entry ie. 90 extra places pa.

We're still looking for supporters so that we can potentially apply for a second Harris primary school.

Judith Kerr with 50 places will hopefully settle on East Dulwich or Peckham Rye area.

IF all three things come to pass we'll have something between 170 and 230 new primary school places.

The alternative plan from the current council is to have 7 or 8 bulge classes in the area every year. Which with only 10 schools would soon swamp those schools and see performance dive.

[Renata Hamvas]

James Barber Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Hi esme,

> I also share your concerns.

>

> Cllr Lewis Robinson as then chair of the Dulwich

> Community Council agreed to my request to ask a

> formal question about primary and secondary places

> for the Dulwich area at 29 November 2011 counrcil

> assembly -

> http://moderngov.southwarksites.com/mgConvert2PDF.

> aspx?ID=25822&ISATT=1#search=%22secondary%20school

> %20admissions%22

>

> The Question and answer are on page 14 Question

> 10. The then forecasts of primary places have

> since been revised upwards.

>

> But the response around secondary school places

> was "The planning for secondary school places is

> carried out on a borough wide basis and therefore

> there is not a forecast for the Dulwich planning

> area". This is despite a question from the

> Rotherhither Community Council is May 2011 where

> an answere for Ritherhithe secondary school

> admissions was given referring to forecast to that

> area alone.

>

> So once we've got January and the new East Dulwich

> Harris Primary school application submitted ED

> ccouncillors will be looking at secondary school

> places. With the latest primary school forecasts

> for the larger area stating we need 235 extra

> reception places a year and a normal secondary

> school takes 150 pupils per year - then despite

> the recent opening of the ED Harris Boys schools -

> it FEELS clear to me we need another local state

> secondary school.

James,

it would have been helpful if you attended the last Dulwich Community Council, then you would have heard what your Ward Colleagues, other local Councillors and members of the public in the audience heard in the presentation by council officer Sam Fowler about projections and plans for primary school places in the Dulwich area. The Borough is split into five areas (the Community Council areas) and pupil number predictions are done around these five zones.

Central East zone

(Peckham and Nunhead area, Peckham Rye, Nunhead, the Lane, Peckham and Liversey Wards)

2013, 1.5 to 2.5 FE

2014,1 to 2.5 FE

2015, 2 to 3.5 FE

2016, 3 to 4.5 FE

South of the Borough Zone

(Dulwich area, College, Village, East Dulwich Wards)

2013,2 to 2.5 FE

2014, 1.5 to 2.5 FE

2015, 2 to 2.5 FE

2016, 2.5 to 3 FE

Notes: FE is an abbreviation of Forms of Entry. One form of entry is equivalent to 30 additional places in a year group.

This is from the formal report and therefore I'm not sure where the 285 extra places required for the Dulwich area has been plucked from! The figures are actually 75 to 90 places for the Dulwich zone in 2016.

London Mix, I had a meeting with a Council officer today. The amount of funding secured from the D of E will be available at the end of January. The expansion for example of Langbourne will cost 4-5million, but this will have a significant proportion of the funding going towards a major renovation of the whole school premises ie not just expansion. It is cheaper on the whole to expand existing schools rather than build from scratch due to the additional facilities needed for a new school (new halls, kitchens etc) and extra staffing costs (Head and senior staff). Free schools IMP will form part of the solution for Southwark's school place shortage, but I am still concerned about the Harris/Judith Kerr plans as there is no site to put a school currently available (Hospital site is NHS owned).

Renata

There is on-going planning for Secondary schools as from 2016 onwards the demand for secondary places will increase. Parents of current year 3s I'm sure will remember the primary school fiasco of 2009 (I wasn't a councillor then and it was under aprevious council administration, but I was aware of it as a local resident, plans are being made for when this cohort hits secondary. All secondary schools in the Borough have been contacted and some are now in discussion about expansion. This has involved eg architects visiting sites. There is a also a new school in the Walworth area and another possible new Secondary Free school in the planning stage. All of the Secondary schools are Academies and therefore set their own admissions criteria. I have discussed this with officers and they say that the extra secondary places would be provided for local people.

Renata

[Jessie]

Thank you for addressing the secondary question, Renata. Much appreciated.

[James Barber]

Hi Renata,

I missed the last Dulwich Community Council as was my youngest's Christmas concert. So please stop telling me I should have been to a meeting I could not attend. I read all papers from meeting whether I can attend or not and pass comments to colleagues.

Expanding Langbourne is a fine idea but it's already under subscribed as a one form entry school. It's a location few can easilly reach. It therefore doesnt solve any problem.

The shortage of primary school places of up to 235 places comes from the CAbinet report 20 November - http://moderngov.southwark.gov.uk/documents/g4248/Public%20reports%20pack%20Tuesday%2020-Nov-2012%2016.00%20Cabinet.pdf?T=10 page 92-100.

A proprtion of the Camberwell shortage of 3 to 4 forme entry (90-120) will imapct the Dulwich area as it borders and some of the Peckham and Nunhead wont impact our area because its not so close. So overall they probably even out roughly.

Hence why we have a shortage in the south Southwark are of up to 235 places.

Glad to see you are now agreeing free schools is part of the answer. Hallelujah.

[LondonMix]

Thanks for the update Renata. So are all three schools previously discuss- Dulwich Hamlet, Bessemer and Langbourne- definitely going to be expanded. If not, which ones? Has the funding for all of these expansions been secured? How much of the funding is from the Department of Education and where is the balance coming from?

[Renata Hamvas]

Hi James, you keep implying that there has been no pupil planning specific to the Dulwich area, this is why I raised the November Dulwich CC meeting, the plans were presented to local residents then. The 235 figure I guess is therefore for the two central and southern Community Councils pooled together? This is the entire Southern half of Southwark. There are other plans for the Peckham and Nunhead CC area and for the Camberwell CC area (eg expansion of Bessemer Grange). I don't think any Hallujah's are in order as I'm not a supporter of the concept of free schools in general. Anyone can set up a free school, curriculum controls? Self-administered admissions criteria? even more minor things like they don't need to follow guidelines on school dinners. Funding implications on existing schools etc.

What will Harris do if they get approval and the hospital site isn't an option? Will it go on the Harris Girl's site (as happened with the Harris Academy at Peckham/Harris Free School).

Renata

[LondonMix]

And my questions?

[Renata Hamvas]

Sorry Londonmix, I think I was writing mine when you posted your!

The outcome of the current round of funding for additional school places will be known at the end of this month (it's an annual thing). I'll be able to update you on the specifics of time scales then.

Renata

[LondonMix]

Great, thanks

[redjam]

Renata, very good to hear that plans are being put in place for the future squeeze on secondary school places - as the mum of a Year 3 child I'm already aware of several families planning to move out of the area due to worries over secondary schools. At the risk of hijacking the thread, can I ask what is/where will be the possible new free school that is still in the planning stage? And is it too early to reveal which of the existing secondary schools are currently in discussions about expansion? Many thanks.

[LauraW]

James Barber,

Why on earth are you using your position as a councillor to call for Harris to have a new free school set up? New primary schools are needed and they do not need to specifically be either free schools or run by Lord Harris. This smacks of corruption to me. Do you have conflicts of interest to declare?

[bemusED]

james

i'm concerned by your parting shot here.

"The alternative plan from the current council is to have 7 or 8 bulge classes in the area every year. Which with only 10 schools would soon swamp those schools and see performance dive."

we are making our final decisions about primary places for our kid this week.

we are reliant on east dulwich schools having bulge classes in 2013 to convince ourselves of our choice for a place locally.

you appear to have evidence though which suggests that schools with bulge classes see a notably drop in performance.

can you share that ASAP?

[Chillaxed]

Do you have a good lawyer?

LauraW Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> James Barber,

> Why on earth are you using your position as a

> councillor to call for Harris to have a new free

> school set up? New primary schools are needed and

> they do not need to specifically be either free

> schools or run by Lord Harris. This smacks of

> corruption to me. Do you have conflicts of

> interest to declare?

[James Barber]

Hi Lauraw,

Tony Blair put an end to local councils building or opening new schools. Either we have more primary schools OR bulge every local scholols ever year. The ideal size of a primary school is 2 or 3 form entry. So bulge schools to the degree required on a permanent basis will damage children;s education.

So on the basis we need more places and I dont want to damage our kids education we looked around for school providers.

of Harri's 10 ofsted inspected schools 9 went strsight to outstanding and the 10th to good. This level of performance is above any local education authority.

If I was a cyncial politican I could have sat on my hands and then said how terrible lLAbour was for relying solely on bulge classes and how terrible the results were becoming.

Hi bemusedED,

I'm sorry to alarm you. Not my intention. By 2016 the forecast is that we need up to another 90 primary places pa in Dulwich and another 135 in the wider area. Many children from the wider area already use Dulwich school mostly Eat Dulwich schools. That demand in 2016 would require 7 or 8 bulge classes.

So we (ED councillors) have been encouragin gthE judith Kerr primary school to locate in East Dulwich and they start in 2013. We've also approahced a number of education providers but Harris were by far the most helpful and successful track records. They would, application going well, start 2014. IF we show sufficient parental demand potential another second Harris school starting 2015. At that point we wonuldnt need any more bulge classes.

Other such as cllr Hamvas have said we don't need any more schools and that we can bulge our way out of it permanently.

[Renata Hamvas]

The facts point to the need for 2-3 extra forms in 2016 for the Dulwich CC area not 7-8 (7-8 amounts to the southern half of the Borough's demand). There are not just bulge classes being set up but permanent expansions plus some sites that were previous school sites will be used to open new primaries. I haven't had any complaints or local residents not wishing to send their children to the currently available local schools.

I'm would like to point out again that there is comprehensive pupil planning going on and that is being done in zones and not just in the borough as a single entity . The last time there was chaos over primary school places was in 2009 (Actually when the council was being run by the Lib Dems in conjunction with the Conservatives). I could go on, however, I think it is unhelpful for local residents for this thread to disintergrate into a political slanging match.

Renata

[James Barber]

The permanent expansions proposed are places like Langbourne school. That school currently is one form entry and undersubscribed. It's a really tricky place to get to - and the head is wonderful. Some of the schools like Ivydale taking buldge classes are really struggling being asked for a second year in a row to bulge.

Renata we didnt have chaos in 2009. Locally we had one bulge class due to GLA forecasters not spotting a small bulge.

2016 is a whole new ball game. Stop being ostrich like.

[LondonMix]

Both, less politics please. It's still not clear to me if the new 2-form entry Harris Primary that has now received enough parental support is considered enough to deal with East Dulwich's and the surrounding areas' primary shortage. Will we still need bulges by 2016? Are we still planning to permanently expand surrounding schools-- Bessemer Grange, Dulwich Hamlet and Langbourne?

I just want to understand what the plan is. I understand funding for the expansion program will be determined at the end of this month but is it fair to assume Renata, that you are pushing forward with this proposal? If the expansion of all 3 schools occurred, and Harris opened their primary on the proposed hospital site, would we still also need bulges or would the primary issue for this part of the borough be solved. Thinking about Camberwell / Nunhead / Peckham and East Dulwich as one large school area is important as issues in one area has knock on effects elsewhere.

Thanks,

LM

[Renata Hamvas]

Hi Londonmix, the council is still moving forward with its plans. There are plans for the area surrounding Dulwich as well, (eg Peckham and Nunhead) other permanent expansions and schools too. I can only go as far as basing everything on the pupil prediction for 2016 at the moment. There could be a shift upwards or downwards from this. That is the need of around 2.5 forms for the Duwich area for 2016, this could be met by the expansions and bulges and/or a new school if a site for one is found. The predictions for this area indicate that thre will be relatively stable demand over the next few years (around the 2.5 form level above current non-bulged non-expanded levels for local schools). Be aware that if Harris and/or Judith Kerr are successful in their bid, they may end up setting up their school elsewhere. Southwark Free School courted families living near Southwark station. They got support and wanted a site in the area. They didn't get it and yet did open the school in 2012, but it's in a tenants' hall in Rotherhithe, Kms to the east of the original proposed site. I wonder how many of the children of those original supporters actually are attending the school now it is open. I was really surprised by this, that a school can get approval and subsequent funding and then move the school location somewhere else!

Renata

[LondonMix]

Okay, understood and thanks for the information. It would be great if you can keep us updated on how the funding for the expansion of these 3 schools is coming along and the timeline.

[bemusED]

james - I understand that more spaces are required. what alarms me is your statement that bulge classes result in schools performance 'diving' and so I asked you to substantiate on that.?

[James Barber]

Hi LauraW,

I have no conflict of interest or area of benefit and it does not 'smack of corruption' as you suggest.

Harris Federation is a registered charity.

[intexasatthe moment]

As per JB's

"As for Local Authorities. Under the Localiam act their is nothing to stop them applying to central government for the ability to create new schools"

that's what I'd like .

Does being a registered charity somehow confer kudos or legitimacy to an organisation ?

Or even prevent that organisation from benefiting , financially or otherwise .