New East Dulwich Primary School 161/80 + 102

[Fuschia]

LondonMix Wrote:

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> Fuschia, I agree with you in general about

> Academies. But for those who don't have time to

> read the full link, it would be worth presenting a

> more balanced summary of what the article

> concludes. I quote from Fuschia's link:

>

> " A similar picture emerges if we look at % of

> students making expected progress in English and

> Maths. In both categories the ARK and Harris

> chains are above the national average but the

> other five chains are below it. And overall the

> chains are again below the national average."

>

> A lot of Harris's value add is a maths rather than

> English. Fuschia's claim that Harris have no

> value add is patently untrue even according to her

> own link. Again, this is not a defence of

> Academies in general but I don't like this type of

> manipulation of the truth.

>

LM, the '1000'

Measure as average value added for gcse scores (Harris were sitting at 1000) is the accepted measure of 'value added'

Conflating that with % making average progress in eng/ma is something different.

And I would be grateful if you would stop accusing me of manipulating the data, please. I could as well say the same about you.

'

[Fuschia]

Value added explained

http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/performance/secondary_11/KS2-4_General_VA_Guide_2011_FINAL_AMENDED.pdf

'if the confidence interval straddles the national average of 1,000, then we can say that the school is not significantly different from the national average'

[LondonMix]

Fuschia, if you read the article carefully, the stats you are quoting are for English value add only not all GCSEs...

The article doesn't choose to present the value add score across both Math and English (which is the standard measure!) for whatever reason. The progress statistic is significant and is often correlated to the total Math and English value add scores. When looking at ED Harris Girls, (which has a very high value add score) the most significant progress was being made in math which suggests that Harris may or may not be better at progressing pupils in Math than English. The article provides incomplete information but what it does present shows that Harris is performing above national averages when Math and English are both taken into account.

Again, that in and of itself is not all that is necessary to support Harris but please get your facts right.

[LondonMix]

If you look at the dept of education statistics you will see that ALL Harris Academies have value add scores above 1,000 that have been open long enough to have exam results. These include: ED Harris Girls, Harris Academy at Peckham, Harris Academy Crystal Palace, Harris Academy Bermondsey, Harris Academy Merton, Harris Academy South Norwood, Harris Academy Falconwood, and Purley.

ED Boys, Chafford, Beckenham, Morden, Coleraine Park, Philip Lane, and Bromley don't yet have scores as they haven't been open long enough.

Below are the Dept of education statistics backing this up. The dept of education calculate value add stats for English an Math combined so I don't know how the article you linked to purports to have just the English results anyway:

http://www.education.gov.uk/cgi-bin/schools/performance/school.pl?urn=134225

http://www.education.gov.uk/cgi-bin/schools/performance/school.pl?urn=135311

http://www.education.gov.uk/cgi-bin/schools/performance/school.pl?urn=131747

http://www.education.gov.uk/cgi-bin/schools/performance/school.pl?urn=131897

http://www.education.gov.uk/cgi-bin/schools/performance/school.pl?urn=135249

http://www.education.gov.uk/cgi-bin/schools/performance/school.pl?urn=135677

http://www.education.gov.uk/cgi-bin/schools/performance/school.pl?urn=135955

Edited to add: I may be guilty of many things but presenting facts that are untrue without carefully reading or checking them is not one of them. I know my last statement to you was strong but you have (most likely unintentionally) done this several times on this thread (misquoting someone's salary, funding arrangements, claiming a company was making profit that wasn't etc etc etc) and I felt it was time to call you out on it is all.

[DenmotherSmith]

"Those of us who campaigned against the Harris secondary a few years ago predicted it would not be a local school - and indeed it is not. What we have is an intrusive eyesore, not a school that local people send their children too."

I really find this statement irritating and not helpful to the debate about a new primary school. I'm a local parent, my son attends Harris Boyds ED, all his school friends are local boys. This insinuation that the school does not serve the local population has some deeply disturbing undertones, the snobbery of some posters on here, who look at the boys from Harris and say 'oh they are not from around here' is nauseating. Plenty of local parents chose to send their sons there, plenty will chose to send them to a Harris primary should it happen.

[James Barber]

Hi DenmotherSmith,

Please do spread the word, especially to parents of 1 and 2 yo children, that they can help avoid a primary school admissions disaster by supporting a new Harris Primary school in the area OR they can hope the council will find ?40-50M from somewhere.

Hi LondonMix and fuschia,

Thanks you both for exploring Harris;s performance at secondary level.

Beating the national average and adding value is something 10 years ago we hoped would be possible but seemed a huge mountain to climb. I'm chuffed we've all raised out expectations and now think we need more than that. Sadly many Southwark schools have yet to reach the success of Harris.

So we seem to have s tark choice for Primary school places. HOpe Southwark find ?40-50m from somewhere and that Southwark schools will still be successful when we have lots of building works on site and bulge classes all over the place OR we build new schools and the only avenue for that is free schools.

Pragmatically I prefer the latter.

[Chillaxed]

I agree James. I just hope your pragmatism inlcudes other free school options like the bilingual school.

Have you actively encouraged them to set up in ED as you have for Harris?

Thanks,

Chillaxed

[EDmummy]

brendapermaul Wrote:

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> Harris has a track record of getting on badly with

> local authorities and local authority schools.

> They do not co-operate with them and can be

> aggressive towards them.

> Other local authorities have managed and expanding

> primary population by increasing the size of their

> existing schools. I cannot see where there is

> space to build a local school in this area.

> Those of us who campaigned against the Harris

> secondary a few years ago predicted it would not

> be a local school - and indeed it is not. What we

> have is an intrusive eyesore, not a school that

> local people send their children too.

> Far better to work with schools that are already

> here and want to meet the needs of the local

> population.

So what are you basing your statement on the lack of local children at the school? Like Denmother, my son goes to Harris Boys ED, lives three streets away from it and has local kids as class mates. Yes, children have come from further afield but that is because of local snobbery and prejudice. I want this school to be a jewel in the crown of the Harris network and one of the ways for this to happen is if we have a good mix of local children. Why would you not want to support a school on your doorstep. Any local parents worried about the firm discipline of the school shouldn't! It is nothing like the rumours and from what I have heard of another local secondary school, works far more effectively in keeping a productive learning environment that a more laissez faire approach.

[Chillaxed]

"Yes, children have come from further afield but that is because of local snobbery and prejudice"

Genuinely interested, but how does local snobbery (which I'm sure exists) mean kids come from further afield? Do local kids not fill the available places?

[EDmummy]

Chillaxed Wrote:

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> "Yes, children have come from further afield but

> that is because of local snobbery and prejudice"

>

> Genuinely interested, but how does local snobbery

> (which I'm sure exists) mean kids come from

> further afield? Do local kids not fill the

> available places?

Local parents just don't put it as a choice on their forms or put it third or fourth. Not all schools have distance as a criteria (Kingsdale), some have bands and distance (Harris ED, Harris Crystal Palace) and others are distance only (Charter). The school is starting to attract more local kids but as it is relatively new and hasn't yet done GCSE exams, some parents are wary. I'm pleased so far but am definitely not complacent.

[LondonMix]

Yes, until fairly recently academies were associated with being poor and in a neighborhood with failing schools-- hence the snobbery.

[James Barber]

Hi brendapermaul,

We've contacted all local councillors to try and ensure cross party support. That's hardly looking to make it vote winning.

Expanding local schools can be suitable. But the Duwlich Hamlet schools is already very squeezed. Expanding schools above 2 or 3 form entry can cause real issues. Plus the expansions are assuming the government will give Southwark council ?40-50m. Other authorities also need such huge sums and frankly the Conservative Secretary of State michsel Gove is choosing to invest in free school academies.

No plans to use East Dulwiuch Community Centre - East Dulwiuch councillors have put a lot of effort into helping it survive and invested a great deal of Cleaner, Greener, Safer capital funding on things such as floodlighting to allow youth activities int winter months.

Talking to Harris Federation they find Local Authorities frosty. They're also extremelt impatient to raise standards. That's not necessarily a bad thing for our children.

[James Barber]

Hi Chillaxed,

I have actively supported the Judith Kerr bilingual German/English school. I've alerted them to the Dulwich Hopsital site and other sites close to East Dulwich including. I'm keen they decide they want to set-up here. Currently they've not narrowed their decision from Southwsark or Lambeth and if Southwark whether Rotherhithe or Dulwich.

We've had numoerous emails, several phone calls and met face to face.

We need 2 - 3 addiitonal local schools.

[TE44]

I think people have made thereself clear about there reasons for not wanting another Harris school. I can't see anywhere on this thread people judging the children. I think it is unfare to say thats whats being said here. My children have all left secondry education, the last year there school became an academy. Yes, there were problems in the school, but still 97% of parents did not want an academy. There was a constant battle for years, first the PFI( pritate financial initiative, which parents, teachers and local community stopped. Then after a long fight to keep it a comprehensive, it was taken over to become an academy. Through whole process, it felt merely a process. I have had no experience with Southwark council and academys, but I do remember albeit a long time ago, sovhwarks dealings with a private firm who won the bidding to manage southwark primary schools, but im sure James would say thats a long time ago, no one cares. , I just can't see how anything on this thread is looking down at children from Harris.

[Chillaxed]

Cool, good to hear, thanks James.

James Barber Wrote:

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> Hi Chillaxed,

> I have actively supported the Judith Kerr

> bilingual German/English school. I've alerted them

> to the Dulwich Hopsital site and other sites close

> to East Dulwich including. I'm keen they decide

> they want to set-up here. Currently they've not

> narrowed their decision from Southwsark or Lambeth

> and if Southwark whether Rotherhithe or Dulwich.

> We've had numoerous emails, several phone calls

> and met face to face.

>

> We need 2 - 3 addiitonal local schools.

[James Barber]

Hi TE44,

You refer to the last Labour government taking the education department away from the then Labour run council because the it was failnig our children so incredibly badly. The Labour government then appointed highways contractors to run the dept. they equally failed. Then a different contractor to run it. By this time it was the second year of a Lib Dem led council and the then Labour government handed education back to the council to run due they said to the marked improvement in how the council was being run.

But this thread is not about the past. It's about how we rapidly provide primary school reception places ASAP.

[TE44]

Will they ever learn?

Southwark schools, arguably the worst managed in the country, seemed ideal guinea pigs for an experiment in privatising education. (sorry edited to say, above a quote from the press at that time)

Yes you are right James, it is the past, but I have found similar attitudes then as I do now. Manipulative powers who refuse to listen to what parents want.My experience with lib dem run Southwark, when my children were moving to secondary, were consultations to see why people were moving out of the borough for schools, which again was found to be a process, this was shown when some parents showed up at the public meeting in the town hall to make sure the councillor was accurately giving our views. This was not the case, and none of the questions that arose were ever answered. There were many parent, teachers and heads of schools who felt there hands were tied back then especially in regard to the mess with the private companies. there were many people willing to learn from this episode but unfortunately not many in local or central goverment. My grandchild will be starting school next September, can you tell me if there will be any choice or consultation with parents.

[prickle]

James Barber Wrote:

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> Hi Chillaxed,

> I have actively supported the Judith Kerr

> bilingual German/English school. I've alerted them

> to the Dulwich Hopsital site

...isn't the Dulwich Hospital site earmarked for the Harris Primary? Exactly how many schools are going to be on this site?

[Renata Hamvas]

There is still no information about the proposed site of this Prmary school. as I have said above, IMO this is the most major problem. The Dulwich Hospital site is exactly that, a hospital site, NHS owned. Yes, there is a possibility that in the future at some point a school could be put on part of the site, but there is no guarantee of this! This is why I have questioned whether Harris are planning to put a primary on a existing school site, which is what they have done at Academy@Peckham.

Renata

[James Barber]

Hi Renata,

TheDulwich Hospital site is largely vacant. And in public ownership. If any group can knock Dept of Health head together to release 5,000m2 of the 27,000m2 Dulwich Hopsital site Lord Harris can.

But where do you and your Labour colleagues stand on this?

Do you support more local primary schools or do you think the answer is applying for ?40-50m from central government to expand schools on in most cases very small existing school sites?

[brendapermaul]

Actually I have live in this area for over 30 years - so really am a local - and not a snob. I grew up on a council estate in Stockwell and went to the local comprehensive - then to university ! I actually work in education with vulnerable children - one of the reasons I dislike Harris - they do not deal with them well. However, I see few children from Harris walking home an most children here go out of the borough or into the private sector at secondary.

From the author of the remark about Harris Boys / Girls not being for local children !!!

[James Barber]

Hi brendapermaul,

I doubt most local children go out of Southwark or use private education.

As part of the Dulwuch Safe Route to School committee I undertook a short study of a private school pupil catchment area. Overwhelmingly the pupils came from Southwark/Lambeth (the school was very close to the border).

I see lots of children walking to The Charter school. I'm rarely around ED Harris Boys at start of finish times so can't comment on it.

Buit please don't foget that the ED Harris Boys spent its first two years 2 miles away at Langbourne School.

[FRMKE]

James, Can you provide the figures, showing how many children travel outside the borough to schools please. I am finding the alternative source, from the department for education rather difficult. A link below to the changes in statistical publications- school destinations of secondary school pupils resident in London boroughs.http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/mar/17/secondary-schools-schooladmissions

sorry this is my daughters user name did not realise.

[brendapermaul]

Obviously you are not - or never have been a local parent ! My children went to Goodrich and then Sydenham Girls - along with a lot of their class mates. The boys went to Forest Hill - but a lot of the middle classes went to Alleyns and Dulwich College, Sydenham High. Prendergast and Askes were other destinations for the selected few. So are these Southwark schools ? Don't think so !

People chose these options when what they really wanted was a good local mixed school - and instead we got Harris !!!

[James Barber]

Hi brandapermaul,

You omit local schools such as The Charter solely distance based or Kingsdale banding and distance.

ED Harris Boys certainly had a lot of local boys when I visited last year from memory. My last visit to the ED Harris Girls was 3 or 4 years ago and the then head ket us largely in their office. So I can't comment.