New East Dulwich Primary School 161/80 + 102

[prickle]

Kingsdale is banding and lottery not distance.

[TE44]

http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/ols-sdssp.pdf

James

Can you tell me how many children who live in Southwark, go our the borough to schools. I can see the Department for Education stopped publishing these figures, after consultation (link). I take it these figures should be easier for you to get, I imagine you looked at figures when you visited last year. And can you also tell me if Southwark was one of the boroughs who repled to this consultation (link above).

[James Barber]

Hi TE44,

i don't have that data or the time to contact every secondary level school in the borough. But I'd be really interested to know if you find out. To get a reall idea of the 'border traffic' you'd need to find the info for neighoburing boroughs.

Does the 2011 census just released have any leads?

[Renata Hamvas]

Hi TE44, the latest figures are from Jan 2012.

for primary 9.5% of primary pupils come in from outside the Borough, 6.3% go outside Southwark

for Secondary: 21.6% of pupils come into Southwark and 22.7% of Southwark's secondary aged pupils travel outside the Borough

for comparison,

Lewisham 14.4% of pupils come from outside of Lewisham and 27.0% go outside the Borough

Lambeth 24.4% of pupils are from outside Lambeth and 38.7% of pupils go outside the Borough

It's not surprising that the proportion is far higher for Secondary than Primary. Firstly, as where schools select on distance, Secondaries are larger than primaries and tend to have much larger last place offered distances, so these will frequently cross borough boundaries if schools are quite close to them. Also many secondaries have speciality subjects and can offer 10% of places to children with aptitude for that subject, also some schools select by lottery so don't have a distance-linked criteria and of course there are church schools and the selective out of borough grammars. A smaller proportion of Southwark's pupils leave the borough compared to Lambeth or Lewisham.

Renata

[Renata Hamvas]

OK back to the subject matter of this thread. Southwark carries out pupil place planning based on information such as, current school rolls/capacity, birth rates, underlying population projections, migration and new housing.

The Southwark live birthrate has showed a gradual increase up to 2010. The 2011 level is slightly lower, at the 2009 rate. This may either be a blip and the rate could go up again, or the peak was reached in 2010. 2012 figures of course aren't available yet. The borough is split into 5 pupil planning areas. Taking into account all the above factors, the Dulwich community council area, South zone (East Dulwich, College, Village) is predicted to shortfall of around 2-2.5 classes each year between 2013 and 2016 for reception entry. The Peckham and Nunhead CC area, central zone (Peckham Rye, Peckham, Lane, Nunhead and Liversey) is predicted to have a shortfall to 2 rising to 4 classes in 2016. This is with current school sizes, no bulges etc.

As a result of this, a detailed survey of all primary schools (including disused ones) in the borough was undertaken. This included looking at their condition and space and whether they could expand. This is not yet finalised as more detained analysis is being carried out. The Education Act of 2011 have removed the ability of the LA to address pupil place shortage by setting up a new school. It can only be done via a Free School route. However as no-one knows what will happen in the longer term (is the demand for primary places going to fall back and secondary become more of an issue?), a flexible solution is needed. I attended the most recent Dulwich CC where a council Officer presented the information to residents. Local schools being considered for permanent expansion include Langbourne, Bessemmer Grange and Dulwich Village/Hamlet (note acads).(There are others that would serve the Peckham and Nunhead area) Also there are likely to be some bulges too (I will update on these once they are confirmed). As I keep saying the main issue for the Dulwich area is where could a new school go? I know the hospital site keeps being raised, but it is the Health authorites, not Southwark's property. Maybe once the shake-up of health care in South London is completed it will be decided the hospital site will be used for a massive state of the art day centre/polyclinic-who knows.

I am sure many of you will have read my positive feedback about the Harris Academies in my Ward. I think these are very good schools, happy parents, pupils, good attainment. There are however other possible academy provers too, in the wings and the main issue still boils down to location, location, location.

Renata

[LondonMix]

Thanks Renata for a very informative post.

[prickle]

Yes, agreed. Thank you Renata.

[James Barber]

Hi Renata,

Everything you've described led to the school places issues of 2009.

Why are things different and we shouldn't accept the officer views that school admissions are just as likely to return to past trends. Council officers in another department are also forecasting increasing population and that increase includes Dulwich as well as all other areas of Southwark.

So assuming officers are not under forecasting we need a whole new school for Dulwich at least + to contiune with rotating buldge classes atthe current level which is hardly satisfactory.

Fine idea to expand Langbourne (a Good school as rated by Ofsted) but no one can get there and its already with one form of entry under subscribed despite shortages of school places. The only thing in my mind that would make it really popular is joining it with Kingsdale and guaranteeing admission to Kingsdale. When I last spoke to the head of Kingsdale and chair of governors they were dismissive of the idea.

Dulwich Hamlet to expand would need space for an extra seven classrooms. The site is already severely constrained.

Bessemer Grange - that could expand if the land opposite was joined to it and ideally the seperating road blocked up.

So after all this its clear we need another primary school in Dulwich. As you've said the only way to do that is via the free school route. Other free school providers could do it but could they do it by the 4 January the deadline and could they complete the 130 page application form and find 80 supporters with 1 and 2 year old children. This seems unlikely.

Harris are now over half way to that target. Have a draft application form.

As for site if anyone can extra the required space from the Dept of Health Lord Harris can.

The other driver for Dulwich primary school demand is the Peckham Ryeand Nunhead areas. They have Ivydale and a massive gap. They also need another new school.

As for sites their are a number that Harris are investigating in that area.

[Renata Hamvas]

James,

I haven't said that I think demands will drop, but they may. There is a limited stock of housing that becomes available and familes once they come tend to stay, they are now less likely to move after the first child finishes primary. This means that I doubt that there will be ever increasing demand for primary school places in the Dulwich area.

There are 5 primaries that may be expanding in the Peckham and Nunhead area. I am not sure what you mean about Ivydale and a massive gap, there is Hollydale, John Donne, Rye Oak, and Lewisham schools Edmund Waller, Turnham, John Stanier and the New Haberdasher's Aske' Free School catering for the greater Nunhead area (Nunhead shares its long Eastern boundary with Lewisham). Due to the location of Ivydale, really close to Lewisham, the Free School will take some pressure away from Ivydale. (I am aware of the sibling issue for 2013 and have been talking to the Head of Ivydale and Council Officers about this).

I am concerned that there could be the Southwark Free School situation. Primary school based in a TRA hall. Not ideal for primary school children.

Renata

[Renata Hamvas]

To add- Dulwich Hamlet is a Junior school, I think it has one bulge, so to expand needs 3 more classrooms than that, not 7.

Renata

[TE44]

thanks Renata, I couldnt find it anywhere.

[brendapermaul]

Thanks you Renata. It seems that the Council is already doing some sensible planning and that the Harris development could be superfluous. Could this be communicated more widely, so that people are reassured and not panicked into supporting something when they do not know of alternatives.

I would also be interested in giving support to locally based Community School options.

[LondonMix]

Renata are there any conditions that need to be met for the expansion of the existing academies you mentioned-? Is the funding in place and when do you think this might be possible? Is your ideal solution a combination of expansion and bulges (so not to overbuild in case demand drops)?

Again, thanks very much.

[TE44]

he Academy Act 2010 made it possible for all publicly funded schools in England to become academies.

Since 2010 there has been a large increase in the number of schools in England that are designated as academies. There were 203 academies in May 2010, 1,070 by September 2011 and 2,309 by September 2012. It is estimated that employment in academies accounts for around 3% of total public sector employment.

Office for national statistics released today

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/pse/public-sector-employment/q3-2012/art.html#tab-Summary

Local East Dulwich councillors have asked the Harris Federation to deliver one or possibly two primary schools for our area:

[jamesbarber.mycouncillor.org.uk]

If we don't get such suggest we will be short of 235 reception places by 2016 in the Dulwich, Peckham Rye and Nunhead areas.

James, I feel your original post offers no alternatives, almost an ultimatum. Yes people want choices, changes and new ideas but unfortunately when monopolies appear, it often takes away the choice. Are you aware there are other options.

When was this discussed with Harris federation. I'm sorry if I've missed any older posts relating to this. I cannot spend long on computer due to my health, so do not want to search.

[James Barber]

Hi TE44,

For the expansions to be met the council needs to obtain ?40-50m from central government and obtain a variety of planning permissions, schools agreements, public consultations. For each form entry of expansion of a school will require 7 additional classrooms. That's a lot of building works around a working schools.

The ?40-50m is unlikely to come from central government - it's an unprecedented amount of money. Frankly I think it's unlikely to be given and I suspect some political gamesmanship in even pretending it would be.

One of the local schools proposed for expanding is Langbourne. It is currently one form entry but can;t even fill that up with the current shortage of places. Unless you live on the neighbouring council estate it is a real pain to get to. So you can expand that school, and Ofsted rate it as GOOD, all you like but already parents are deciding it isnt a practical solution for them. Another proposed local expansion Bessemer Grange, another great school, but similar issues to Langbourne. Expansing Dulwich Hamlet and Infants. It's already a tight squeeze on those sites. Where would naother 7 classrooms fit while building etc.

On this basis we don't believe the councils solution is a practical solution and that it risks creating a huge shortfall of places. But if you think The Dept of Education Secretary of State Michael Gove has changed his spots and would welcome a large expansion in local authority provided education in Southwark, will give Southwark ?40-50m, tthen feel free to oppose a Harris Primary school.

[Renata Hamvas]

I have made enquiries and the 40 million price tag is for works including expansions of schools all across the entire borough. The money required for the ED area schools would be a small part of this.

You still haven't come up with any potential site other than the hospital. Renata

[LondonMix]

Renata, what do estimate the cost would be and by what means can you secure the funding and how secure is it?

Thanks,

LM

[Renata Hamvas]

I'll try and find out the proposed cost specific to the Dulwich schools and post back.

Renata

[TE44]

James, i understand what you are saying about central goverment, but surely it is up to local councils to put forward peoples views. If no one objects because central goverment are given no choice can this be partly down to our representives accepting theres no choice. Renata, I'm glad to hear other options are being considered. Interested to see the costs.

[James Barber]

Hi TE44,

How would a local council give central government no choice?

The council isn't seeking widescale support for its plans. Even if it did they don't stack up.

The Conservative Secretary of State for Education Michael Gove is promoting free schools. To him it's the only show in town.

The only ray of sunshine is using the Localism Act to ask central government to allow Southwark to open new schools. But the process allows central govt to take up to 6 months ot decide whether it agrees or not and would mean new free schools not opening in time. But a useful power for the future if granted.

The trouble is so many local authorities, and lets be clear Southwark included in its past, are rubbish at leading on education. As a consequence all LA's have been tarred with this brush by the last Labour and present governments.

[James Barber]

The ?40-50M Renata is in the Cabinet reports 20 November - http://moderngov.southwark.gov.uk/documents/g4248/Public%20reports%20pack%20Tuesday%2020-Nov-2012%2016.00%20Cabinet.pdf?T=10 pages 92-100.

They relate to proposed 15 to 21 permanent forms of entry expansion across Southwark. So each class will cost ?1.9M to ?3.33M each.

For the proposed Dulwich area extra two forms of entry (which isn't enough to cope with the forcasts of 3 forms entry wil lbe required) that would be between ?3.6M to ?6.6M.

If providing the 3 forms entry the forecasts predict then ?5.7M to ?9.9M with lots of disruption for the schools involved. No guarantee of where the money will come from.

OR we can get a free school which costs Southwark nothing. Has no disruption for our current schools and broadly costs the same amount of money.

[TE44]

james, I didn't make myself clear through wrong spelling, i should have put .central goverment are giving no choice. I am aware of the goverments promotion to have our education moved to private sector. This coalition has encouraged and lawfully made it more possible. I find it strange you have said to both Fuschia and myself, the past is the past who cares, but when convenient for you to blame past goverment, it becomes an answer. I truly believe the changes and proposals being made will be detrimental for our children. I shall havd a look at the localism act.

[LondonMix]

James, you say free schools cost Southwark nothing. Is this because the costs are paid by central government funding?

If this is so, under the expansion plans, locals pay while under the free school option it?s a cost borne by the entire country? Does Southwark have the money to fund the expansion or would the trade-off be cutting local services? What options are there for funding the expansion of existing schools (as the primaries Renata mentioned are academies, can they apply for central gov't funding for the expansion potentially)?

Do either of the cllrs have any analysis on how the schools that could potentially be expanded would be affected? What facilities / land would be used for the additional class rooms etc?

Thanks,

LM

[James Barber]

Indeed. Free schools are funded by central government. While school expansions are funded by the local authority who without any cpaital plans for such work ask central government nicely - which sadly is most likely doomed to failure certainly for ?40-50m.

if the council were to expand schools more cash would pass through Southwarks hand a proportion of which is kept to fund the Southwark Council education dept. services.

The academies could apply for funding. I presume they'd need to go through a similar excercise of find supporters which for Dulwich Hamlet shouldnt be hard.

The lack of clarity about how much Southwark needs also means any application for funding will be asked for further clarity adding delays.

I'm afraid I don't know how the schools would be operationally affected and which bits would need ot be knocked down to make room for new larger buildings. Not an easy experience to work or study through - although St.Anthony's KS2 results are doing really well considering the works they're doing.

[Fuschia]

James, I used to sort of make allowances for you being a Libdem becUse you didn't seem to be in the pocket of the condems, but now I am changing my views. This is just playing politics against southwark council and Renata, and dismissing anyone who expresses concern about the privatisation of education.