I'm really bored, can someone start a heated debate please

[canela]

how about everyone shares their absolute worst parenting moment.....

[buggie]

Whoops! Hadn't realised the thread had gone lighthearted - was bit heavy!

[canela]

heavy can be good.....feel thread is yet to find its razon d'?tre......maybe everyone in a good mood and not up for a ruck...spring is in the air, etc

[Helen GV]

Ha! Spring? Now there's a debatable topic... ;0)

[Convex]

I was planning to lurk on this argument. Can you all step it up please.

[rachel83]

How about folk share their views on parents that don't immunise their children? That should liven things up!

[bodsier]

Aren't you bored with talking about children and families? Perhaps the drawing room is a better place to start if you find this section a bit ....well dull?

[Saffron]

Or maybe we can all just label our feelings before we start throwing things. That will stop us in our tracks from being bad parents and make us reflect on our feelings. (Ha, as if.)

[Bouncy]

I know this was several posts ago, but to pick up on the no-kids-at-weddings theme - what is the deal with that? I genuinely don't get it. If I was gettng married I would want the people who are important in my life, and that includes my friends' children - if the parents are people I'd want at my wedding, I'd want their children too, as they too are important to me, if that makes sense? (Possibly not at this time, should really go to bed!) Would really be interested to hear from people with different views...

[canela]

i think it's just a cost one if you're getting married at a venue with a sit-down meal etc. all the venues charge pretty much the same for kids as they do for adults....so that means if you're getting married on a budget then you either invite just a small group of people with kids, or a larger group without. personally, i got married in a barn and more the merrier, but some people like something a bit more formal and it does get very expensive.

[mollydoodle]

I am currently have a friend who is quite upset with me as I have said I can't make her wedding because of no kiddies rule. By time of her wedding I will have a two month old newborn and she keeps asking me why I can't just leave the baby with my sister for the day and maybe once I have the baby I will change my mind and see how easy it is to leave him (I already have a toddler so I know what it is like looking after newborns). My husband has told me just say I will think about it rather than get into debate about no kiddies rule as I think there should be an exception at least for under ones

[canela]

babies are completely different and no one should ask you to leave a new born. she will understand one day if she has kids but for the moment it must be upsetting.

[WorkingMummy]

Saffron Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Or maybe we can all just label our feelings before

> we start throwing things. That will stop us in

> our tracks from being bad parents and make us

> reflect on our feelings. (Ha, as if.)

O

The labelling feelings thing can be really annoying. Really well meant but really, very annoying.

It's a feeling. It's non-verbal. That's the point. Why should parents, or children, have to talk about their inner lives if they don't want to, anymore than anyone else? Great to listen if they want to talk, about their feelings or anything else, but seriously how often do you want to talk about your emotions? Isn't it better simply to, er, feel it and let it be ?

I've noticed that my kids don't need any dialogue to discern how they feel, or to find their own resolution. Example last night: no 1 crawled into bed beside me, obviously slightly shakey. She seemed afraid. I asked her what was wrong, she didn't reply. Fine. I let it go. I did not say, "You seem really terrified to me, are you completely terrified, is that what it is?" I figured, she doesn't want to talk about it. We just snuggled up instead and she went back to sleep. In the morning, when she woke up, happy and completely unafraid, the very first thing she said to me was, "Mummy, the really big rock that CRASHED into the earth and made the moon, that's not going to happen ever again, is it? Cos it only happened once." All it needed from me was a "That's right my darling," and off she skipped for her porridge. All sorted, and not an emo-label in sight.

[Zedd]

hmmm not sure its heated enough (or at all) BUT...

re the lack of tolerance for children in British society, I was in a department store cafe earlier this week where I headed in order to have a cup of tea and feed my 4 month old. I bought said cup of tea and I wheeled the buggy into a space between 2 tables. At the next table were two women that I would estimate were in their early 70s.

They looked at me and my daughter as though we had just pooed on their table.

Not sure what possessed me but I apologised (?!?) and assured them that we would not disturb their lunch. Why??? Why did I do that?!? It was a department store cafe on a weekday afternoon.

Anyway, to cut a short story long, 40 minutes later my daughter became excited and squealed a couple of times. At this point one of the women turned and said "Oh but you've been so good. Don't spoil it now." Did I mention that my daughter is 4 months old? She wasn't being good or bad, she was being A BABY...!

Anyway, my point is that I have only relatively recently joined the ranks of parenthood and I am by no means of the opinion that babies/ buggies etc entitle me to some sort of privileged treatment but this is only the latest experience that I have had that suggests that in this country some people have strange expectations of how babies should behave.

Weird.

Is this really only a British "thing"?

[WorkingMummy]

That is very unpleasant. And very common. But you get used to it and soon it will be water off a duck's back. What silly women, though.

I'm not sure if UK is uniquely unfriendly to little people. (Try breast feeding in public, or even in some private homes, in the States, for example.) But I think a lot of continental Europe is way better. Italy obviously is amazing. And there are some v nice child friendly Italian restaurants in London. A little Sicilian place just off Leather Market in the City is superb for dosing you and your bambi with only natural adoration. Can't remember it's name immediately....

[Bouncy]

Zedd - there are some idiots out there, but it is their problem, not yours! As WorkingMummy says, you do get used to the odd person who seems to think they have the right to comment on your parenting / your child / your existence. I remember at first, in the midst of sleep-deprivation and new-mum-vulnerability, I'd be quite affected by it. But you do realise that the key issue is around the fact that they are so self-absorbed and egocentric that they feel entitled to make comments like this - and you can then shift the meaning of the encounter over to them rather than internalising it (if that makes any sense at all!)

[Chillaxed]

OK maybe I'm just trying to ramp up the 'heated debate' factor on a slow Friday, and I hate people commenting in ignorance on others parenting, but 'you've been so good, don't spoil it now' doesn't rank up there with the worst comments I've heard or heard of. I doubt very much that these ladies were conscious of your interpretation of their use of the word 'good'. Who hasn't described a baby as a 'good boy/girl'?

-------------------------------------------------------

> hmmm not sure its heated enough (or at all)

> BUT...

> re the lack of tolerance for children in British

> society, I was in a department store cafe earlier

> this week where I headed in order to have a cup of

> tea and feed my 4 month old. I bought said cup of

> tea and I wheeled the buggy into a space between 2

> tables. At the next table were two women that I

> would estimate were in their early 70s.

> They looked at me and my daughter as though we had

> just pooed on their table.

> Not sure what possessed me but I apologised (?!?)

> and assured them that we would not disturb their

> lunch. Why??? Why did I do that?!? It was a

> department store cafe on a weekday afternoon.

> Anyway, to cut a short story long, 40 minutes

> later my daughter became excited and squealed a

> couple of times. At this point one of the women

> turned and said "Oh but you've been so good. Don't

> spoil it now." Did I mention that my daughter is

> 4 months old? She wasn't being good or bad, she

> was being A BABY...!

> Anyway, my point is that I have only relatively

> recently joined the ranks of parenthood and I am

> by no means of the opinion that babies/ buggies

> etc entitle me to some sort of privileged

> treatment but this is only the latest experience

> that I have had that suggests that in this country

> some people have strange expectations of how

> babies should behave.

> Weird.

> Is this really only a British "thing"?

[Saffron]

Sometimes I think the problem is not so much that people are intolerant of children, but that they're quite judgemental of others' parenting styles. The phrase "losen your judgey pants" comes to mind.* xx

*Thanks to Ruth_B

[????]

We had about 100 people to our wedding, with no kids* (except my niece and nephew who are teenagers and very close to our family) My back of the envelope calculation is that if our friends and family had bought kids we'd have had another 40 or so people, no way could we have afforded that so we'd have to have not invited about a third of our friends but - to be honest the no kids thing absolutely makes sense to me - i don't really know half my friends kids that well anyway. I love getting rid of mine when there's a wedding, they find 'em boring anyway. All our friends with kids and babies came anyway.

I think new borns are a different matter, but kids and toddlers? not for my wedding. However, If people have a no kids wedding they then do have to accept some people won't/can't come without getting upset I agree.

But at the end of the day it's up to the wedding couple so, in the spirit of non-crticisng parental skills, who is anyone to criticise who they want at their wedding??

* our eldest daughter was 18 months she came for the ceremony and then went off with her childminder to let us party...

[theasidonio]

Totally agree with ????.

[LondonMix]

Agree with ???. We had kids at our wedding (lot's of them) but I've been to weddings without kids and its a different atmosphere and that's what some people want (its not always about budget). Some people want a grown up celebration where they know their friends can really let loose as the kids are taken care of. People stay out later, party harder etc.

[Pickle]

Yep, I agree too. I'll probably get shot down, but when we got married in NZ we had a no kids wedding. A couple of our guests from the uk had kids with them (our little nephew included) but were completely happy to have a night without them. We helped arrange a babysitter - the kids were at the church and briefly at the drinks part of the reception early evening, but after that point they were taken away and looked after for the night.

I have 3 kids, and could think of nothing worse than having to look after them at a wedding. For me it's a time for me to relax and have fun, not worry about whether they're being trampled on the dance floor by a drunk uncle.

[LauraHW]

Can I go off current topic and throw my hat into the ring with: there is no place for faith schools (especially state funded) in a modern day, multi-cultural Britain. They just promote differences between children from a very early age. We should move towards a secular model like the French have.

[Bouncy]

"at the end of the day it's up to the wedding couple so, in the spirit of non-crticisng parental skills, who is anyone to criticise who they want at their wedding??" - totally agree, not out to criticise, just interested in why people think in different way about this.

[????]

Fair enough Bouncy, I think factors that influnece this are:

Money available

time of wedding (lunch or late pm/evenin)

Size of 'immediate family' ie cousins, etc and their kids, plus how many old fogey relatives you 'have' to invite

Whether the bride and groom have kids

Number of friends AND

Number of friends with kids

whether we are talking babies/toddlers/kids

And the various combinations of these factors are numerous so people have very different views, and they are all fair enough as it's their wedding.