Cinderella - anyone else concerned

[Pickle]

Funny, I was thinking about this thread the other day.

It's all about Bear Grylls in our house these days (and my now 8.75 year old son is partial to the odd episode of Sophia the First)

:)

[bodsier]

These old classics didn't just misrepresent women, they underrepresented cultural/racial differences. Discussion about gender issues ought not be discussed in isolation IMO.

There is a huge discrepancy between children's story books exported from the uk which is huge compared to those imported from around the world. Pippi longstocking was one of the few because it won awards in Sweden. Perhaps it's more likely to change if we request books we would like to read from Independent book shops and less likely to happen via Amazon which is well known for its exploitative practices?

[edhistory]

bodsier Wrote:

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> These old classics

If you name some of them people can read them and form their own judgment.

John K

[nunheadmum]

Midivydale - I think we'd all cringe if anyone did a true 'then and now' analysis on us!

Coming full circle almost, I now hear my two girls (age 7 and 9) saying things that I wish I could record and play back to them in later years. They see the world so purely as kids and can be so full of righteousness!

[scareyt]

bodsier Wrote:

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> These old classics didn't just misrepresent women,

> they underrepresented cultural/racial differences.

> Discussion about gender issues ought not be

> discussed in isolation IMO.

> There is a huge discrepancy between children's

> story books exported from the uk which is huge

> compared to those imported from around the world.

> Pippi longstocking was one of the few because it

> won awards in Sweden. Perhaps it's more likely to

> change if we request books we would like to read

> from Independent book shops and less likely to

> happen via Amazon which is well known for its

> exploitative practices?

Yes! I was horrified to notice, for the very first time, all the sexism and racism in the Narnia books which I completely utterly loved as a child, when I started reading them to my son. It was there all along, we just didn't used to notice it.

[scareyt]

Pickle Wrote:

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> At the risk of sounding callous, I can't help

> thinking there is an awful lot of over thinking

> going on here.

>

> They are kids. Kids will play with whatever takes

> their fancy in that particular 5 minutes of their

> day. When my son chooses to play with a doll he

> is not making a conscious decision to break down

> male gender stereotypes, when my daughter plays

> with trucks/mud/bugs she's not sticking two

> fingers up at the world and celebrating her

> feminist beliefs.

>

> As a parent, I'm confident that reading Cinderella

> to my daughter is not going to result in her

> getting into a relationship when she's older where

> she is controlled and does what she's told at all

> times.

>

> Let them be children.

The trouble is that from these all toys and stories they are absorbing genuine beliefs that will shape their thinking, their ambitions and their prejudices long term. My son is 5, obsessed by Lego Ninjago, and I am now starting to hear him say that girls are boring. He's learnt first from Octonautes, then Andy's Dinosaur Adventures and Treefu Tom, and now Ninjago and Star Wars, that boys get to do most of the cool exciting fun stuff, with the occasional girl joining in sometimes but even then mostly just cheering on the boys. And he's too little to make the leap that that's because this all stuff is all being written by people who are rehashing and repeating the unexamined cultural beliefs that they absorbed when they were little, he just thinks it must be because girls are boring.

[scareyt]

An aside - the sexist content in Octonauts, Treefu Tom & Andy's Dinosaur adventures makes me so angry coming from the BBC.

The toy companies just want to sell us twice as much crap as we need, which they can do by convincing kids that boys and girls must like and want completely different things from each other. At least you can understand their motivations.

But from the BBC, it's just laziness and the result of having people in charge who have never thought this stuff through. It's enraging.

[louloulabelle]

I think a mix of all sorts of stories and books etc is great for kids and I dont believe they see what adults interpret some of these fairy tales as, they seem them simply as a story they like or don't like!. One of my little girls was never out of a princess dress but it was a phase and she's only just 5 but already moving on from that of her own accord. I think sometimes as parents we put too much of our judgements onto what kids should or shouldn't be exposed to and they really dont analyse it that way. Wouldn't be too concerned I dont think the odd disney story etc will shape their future too much. Keep it balanced is my philosophy and just expose them to other stories, theories and ideas to see what they like.

[newtoedf]

A lot of little girls I know (including my own) suddenly got very interested in pink princessy things at around the age of 3 and mostly grew out of it around 6 so the superficial pink and sparkly stuff doesn't seem to be such a big issue long-term.

As WorkingMummy pointed out, what is much more important though are the underlying messages about girls being valued for their appearance, niceness and general passivity (they won't be doing anything interesting so there's little point writing about them I guess) and boys for their intelligence, strength and bravery. While there are some strong female protagonists, the over-riding message is that the male "virtues" are the ones that count. Oh for a well rounded character of any gender!

[scareyt]

But that's the point, Peso is supposed to be this timid dufus, but he goes on almost every single mission, including the ones where there is something that needs fixing ? that Tweak should have been involved with. She hardly ever gets to leave. In one episode, they actually wake her up in the middle of the night, just to open the sodding Octohatch for them so they can go off on adventure.

[sb]

.

[canela]

I am also shocked by kids TV and cbeebies. Nearly all of the cool main characters are boys. Why are there only 2 girl Octonauts on the whole crew? And have you seen Cloudbabies? Baba Pink and Baba Yellow look after the house and care for the stars and sun, and Baba Blue and Baba Green look after the garden and do the DIY!

If you want kids films, TV shows, books etc with strong girl characters you really have to look for them.

[Convex]

i agree re programmes, i have boys and find myself over compensating 'girls can drive tractors too you know' etc etc which makes me feel deranged

i don't want to overcompensate i want a female polar bear in charge of the octonauts (bangs head against wall)

messy goes to okido is a bit more equal i think,

topsy and tim makes the effort probably due to the bashing they got after series 1

but really the starting point should be half and half, surely.

[scareyt]

Oh Lord. I'm now saying a prayer of thanks for having escaped cloud babies -son was too old to be interested when it started. I quite liked In The Night Garden. Also pleased he got to see and love Frozen for a few brief but intense months, before he decided girls stuff is boring.

[LondonMix]

I feel lucky?perhaps I grew up in a golden age but I think my childhood had pretty decent female characters. My favorite Disney film when I was primary school age was the Little Mermaid and though in some ways it?s a love story, its much more about her love of adventure and exploring. I used to watch Annie a lot as well when I was a kid (both films are why I think I love red-hair though I don?t have it)! Pippy Longstockings had red hair too. It seems like strong / adventurous girls are often depicted with red hair for some reason.

Even Belle from Beauty and the Beast was a fairly strong character and more modern films like Finding Nemo with Dori and Wall-E with Eva show funny, feisty, sometimes standoffish and often heroic female characters. I loved Inside Out as well.

If you are really worried about it, I think there are good options to at least help balance it out.

[Otta]

"My Little Pony - Friendship is Magic" (and spin of Equestria Girls films) are VERY popular with my girls at the moment (loads of it on Netflix). I think this is a great show, most of the main characters are female, and they're all different.

I confess to becoming a bit of a brony.

[Mathilda]

Actually I think there is a fairly good range now. My older daughter is 4 and there are plenty of programmes she likes with a main female character doing interesting/adventurous stuff - Dora the Explorer, Doc McStuffins, even Sofia the 1st is often to be seen in leggings playing sports or hiking. There are also lots with 50/50 e.g. Ben & Holly, Topsy & Tim, Let's Play (my daughter is always desperate for it to be Rebecca's turn!)

The more recent Disney films are better too - you have Rapunzel where's it made clear at the end that they don't get married until several years down the line, Merrida in Brave who doesn't want to get married at all, and of course the whole (overdone) "you can't get engaged to someone you only just met" routine in Frozen!

[Monkey]

I agree there is a good range now in movies and also books (I lose count of the number of books my daughter has read which feature strong female characters: the worst princess, Maisie Hitchins, Ottoline to name just a few) and toys (Goldieblox, also check out the cool range of construction toys aimed at girls at Just Williams) We're definitely moving in the right direction. Looking back, there were few strong fictional female characters when I grew up and I spent my time playing with Barbies. But I had a strong-minded mother who never gave me long speeches on feminism but demonstrated it every day in her actions, her way of being, and I think it's had a bigger influence on me than anything else.

Personally, what doesn't sit well with me is more what happens in real life: fathers "giving away" their daughters on their wedding day, the tradition - that my in-laws are so attached to - that parents should pay for their daughter's wedding, the constant references to working mums - what about the working dads?!...

[scareyt]

That's interesting that there is a lot of positive content being created for girls now. I guess what's being slow to catch up is the stuff aimed at boys, which some girls like too, which always gives the girls inferior roles. It's bad news for boys to be see such inequality as normal, and sad for the girls who don't like girly stuff and are drawn to the more adventurous things aimed at boys. I'm thinking about Lego & the Cbeebies stuff mostly.

[scareyt]

Also what's weird about Cbeebies is the live stuff is mostly good and thoughtful, but the cartoons are full of rubbish gender stereotypes.

[canela]

have a look at this. It comes from the States, but I'd be willing to wager the stats for the UK are not wildly different:

Spent Friday at a conference in Cardiff on girls' education. Came across this amazing project (only in Wales!) that supports schools to counter unconscious gender bias... ie use of the playground, different learning areas etc. know it is not strictly on topic of thread, but relevant! Despite strides made in equality, our children (boys and girls) are navigating a difficult landscape of gender stereotypes. http://www.agilenation.org.uk/fair-foundations/

[WorkingMummy]

Good one.

I like this:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XjJQBjWYDTs

[Lula]

Only just discovered this thread and loved reading back all the intelligent well thought through comments. I agree that parents and siblings are the strongest role models but gender stereotyping and pink and blue toys/clothes do make me despair. Love that video, WM.

I find some of the strongest stereotyping comes from adults.

I once saw a mother forcibly remove a sparkly necklace from her 4 year old son's grasp because it was not for him to play with. Little things like this happen to both sexes throughout childhood and into adulthood. I guess it depends on your mood on the day. However, just the other day I was really peeved because I was parallel parking and paused mid-manoeuvre because me son asked me something so I turned around to talk to him and a dad walked past and looked at me, waving me into the space. Now he could have done this by asking if I wanted help getting into the space but instead he smirked and gestured in a way that essentially said, 'go on, you can do it...' Made me so cross!

[canela]

hmmm, have you seen this?

http://everydaysexism.com/

[LondonMix]

I hope you told him you were fine and just speaking to your son! I would find that really annoying as well.

Lula Wrote:

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> Only just discovered this thread and loved reading

> back all the intelligent well thought through

> comments. I agree that parents and siblings are

> the strongest role models but gender stereotyping

> and pink and blue toys/clothes do make me despair.

> Love that video, WM.

> I find some of the strongest stereotyping comes

> from adults.

> I once saw a mother forcibly remove a sparkly

> necklace from her 4 year old son's grasp because

> it was not for him to play with. Little things

> like this happen to both sexes throughout

> childhood and into adulthood. I guess it depends

> on your mood on the day. However, just the other

> day I was really peeved because I was parallel

> parking and paused mid-manoeuvre because me son

> asked me something so I turned around to talk to

> him and a dad walked past and looked at me, waving

> me into the space. Now he could have done this by

> asking if I wanted help getting into the space but

> instead he smirked and gestured in a way that

> essentially said, 'go on, you can do it...' Made

> me so cross!