Goose Green - Fence to be removed

[She'llsurvive]

so what is the situation - are they still planning to remove the fence?

[nancysmum]

So what is their area, mark, and how do you know this? I didn't realise there were 'no go' areas for the wardens - perhaps they don't want to get dog poo on their shoes!

As for the boards, i know what they are for but don't you think it would be nicer if they could be a community thing? or are communities no longer important?

Finally, i never said that someone posted a cat poster on those particular notice boards and got fined. Just to clarify.

Have a nice day

[Mark]

yes, they're still planning to remove it, I'm not sure when though. When I asked 8 months ago they (the council) said were going to "...arrange a site meeting to agree dates and a method statement" and as far as I know nothing has been done. I'll keep you posted if I hear anything.

[AllforNun]

No doubt the executive are like deer caught in the headlights of the potential blaze of publicity surrounding Southwarks very own Dome.

[kristymac1]

Hi Mark,

Do you know who at the Council is dealing with this specifically? It seems to me that for those of us who wish to see the 50/50 situation remain, we should contact the Council members responsible to impress this upon them. Personally I cannot see how it affects dogs and their daily exercise if the fence remains, I can however see (and unfortunatley on occasion feel squelching under foot)the negative effect on other Green users if the area reverts to dog free-for-all.

Just to clarify as a dog-lover and owner for many years (sadly not currently) I am not against dogs and responsible owners, however as with many life situations it is the minority few who spoil it for the rest.....

[Mark]

Hi

As well as the Councillor's statement about their decision to remove the fence, all the details of the people involved and can be seen on here http://www.friendsofgoosegreen.org.uk/index.php?mact=News,cntnt01,detail,0&cntnt01articleid=1&cntnt01dateformat=%25d%20%25B%2C%20%25Y&cntnt01returnid=34

[lard]

James Wrote:

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> Whenever the "I hate dogs/I love dogs" debate

> comes up, why do the anti brigade always tar all

> of us dog owners with the same brush? Most

> dog-owners I know abhor the irresponsible people

> who allow their dogs to foul public spaces and

> bite children. The suggestion seems to be that

> because of an anti-social minority we should

> impose blanket bans.

>

> Imagine applying the same principle to football

> matches or rock concerts? There'd be outrage.

>

> We all pay our taxes so the park should be for all

> of us, dog owners and non dog owners alike.

Same principle IS applied to football matches in relation to drinking at the match, being kept behind after games etc. I would say your average football supporter has been tarnished as a hooligan for 20 years.

Drinking is allowed at a rugby match one day, then not at a football match in the same stadium the day later.

Some other thoughts re: dog shit...

Why do dogs get bad press when other animals such as cats, horses get to crap wherever whenever they like with nobody responsible for picking their poo up.

Does anyone know anyone that has actually got ill from dog poo? Like, ever? Dog bags weren't as popular in the older days so we all grew up with dog poo around us - I personally have never heard of anyone getting ill and I must have met thousands of people. Obviously I am just me, but I would guess the risk of catching an illness is smaller than catching an illness in many other ways which are currently "allowed"

I'm not condoning leaving dog poo, just interested why it is seen more terrible than other similar acts of selfishness..

People seem obsessed with it, when in reality it is just one of those things. People will always do it, cos they are selfish, so you will at some stage step on it.

[nancysmum]

Lard, do you have children? Do you know how easy it is for them to step in it, eat it, rub it into their face / eyes? the fact that we may not know people that this has happened to, doesn't make it less of a threat.

A dog cannot clean up after itself and it cannot use a toilet; the owner must, therefore, take the responsibility to ensure that their dog is not becoming a source of local nuisance. Remember, it is the owner to blame, not the dog.

[lard]

Well it does make it less of a threat. If no one knows anyone that has actually done this, then it isn't much of a threat by definition. I know of lots of kids. I once was one. As I said I personally don't know of anyone ever getting ill because they touched dog poo.

I know the owner must clear it up. I understand that a dog can't. I said above that it is really selfish when owners don't. I'm just interested in knowing why dog owners have to pick it up, while cat owners, horse owners etc don't.

[SeanMacGabhann]

In a word lard, ubiquity

I certainly encounter dog shite many many more times a day than either of the others. Plus dog shite is especially rancid

I don't obsess about it (don't think I've even posted on the subject before) but I do think it's a bit off when people say "get over it". It's not just about the shite itself it's about the mentality that goes with some dog-owners

[lard]

So dog shite is more wrong because there is more of it about?? As an individual act though, is a cat owner who lets their cat shit outside equally selfish?

Dog shite and cat shite is pretty similar on the rancid stakes.

I don't obsess about it either and I find myself talking about it on an internet forum too!! (Is this literally what talking shite is??:)

As I keep saying I don't like the mentality either, and I don't condone it at all.

[mikeb]

I don't think there's much to choose between cat, dog or even fox poo (although carnivore poo is generally more unpleasant than herbivore poo, and probably more poisonous). However, of these, only dog poo is prevalent on Goose Green: just try playing football or watching your toddler run around and fall over.

Just an idea, but given dog 'walkers' are mostly of necessity creatures of habit, usually visiting daily, could it potentially be quite quick to change the situation? e.g. intensive enforcement over a month or so of the requirement to clean-up or face an on-the-spot fine.

[Huggers]

Ive said this before on this thread re dog poo in Goose Green-the dogs in the people only area are usually the scary dogs/akitos/staffies with the scary owners and the muzzles-but who is going to tackle them? the 'twilight barking' brigade who have regularly exercised dogs at around 5.30 in the evening on Goose Green have begun to decamp to Peckham Rye to get away from them.

[Mark]

I walked past the Green the other morning about 8 o'clock and there were four dog walkers having a chat with their dogs in the "no dog area". They weren't the scary staffie types, just the type to made me think "they really don't give a shit about the whether there's a fence there or not."

Anyway, I just spoke to Anne Bernard who is the Project Manager, Area Renewal, Office of the Deputy Chief Executive, Southwark Council. She told me that she has had one cost in from a contractor and is awaiting another before they'll make a decision about the fence, hopefully it will come in the next two weeks. So it's taken four months to get two costs in from contractors! That's rubbish (management of a project). If these quotes aren't competitive enough then she'll ask around for some more quotes, I did suggest that she gets some more quotes in now anyway but she has other things to do.

She also said that ideally it will be done this financial year (end of march 2009) but she did say three months ago she said that ideally it will be done by the end of October (that's now). It's a shame because others in the council work really hard to ensure the Green is looked after but they're let down by the lackadaisical attitude of others who just ain't bovvered.

[nancysmum]

this is the reply i had from the council when i wrote to them asking them to reconsider...

"Thank you for your e-mail. I'm afraid that this decision has already been taken by the Executive Member for Environment after lengthy consideration of all shades of opinion. As a parent with two small children, I do understand and sympathise with your point of view. If the end of the six month trial period, it is resolved that a sub-division of the site is required so that dogs and people can be separated, we will proceed to effect this. Regards Jon Sheaff"

great!

[Mark]

Sorry nancysmum but there was a consultation period, published results, a public meeting or two etc etc. You can't really expect them to change their mind now can you?

Your best bet is to let your feelings be known after the 6 month period that the fence has been removed, of course if you've signed up on the Friends of Goose Green site you'll even get an email to tell you about any important news and events regarding the fence.

[p_in_ed]

My understanding is that the decision was made following a single public meeting, held in the park on a dark autumn evening about a year ago, where most of those that attended were dog walkers. Given that the small number that attended were mainly dog walkers, and that the time of the meeting was unhelpful for families with young children, it's hardly surprising that the outcome was a vote in favour of removing the fence. My view is that if the meeting had been held on a weekend afternoon, the outcome would probably have been different.

[Moos]

p_in_ed, I don't think you put make much of a case. I didn't attend the meeting, but from memory it was held in the Goose Green centre, not in the park, and about 7pm - most people with children would have been home by then for the kids' bedtime, and could either organise half an hour's babysitting or keep them up a bit later if necessary. The meeting was advertised several weeks in advance, and if people didn't attend, the organisers can hardly be blamed for not taking their views into account. I agree that a weekend afternoon would have been easier for families, but the time for putting that argument forward was when it was first mooted. Too late now.

[cate]

Dog poo is dangerous if the dog has worms. The worms can be transferred to humans. Believe that is less possible nowadays as most people worm their dogs. Any doctors out there to confirm?

[p_in_ed]

Moos, the meeting you refer to was a Friends of Goose Green meeting, held in the Goose Green Community Centre, several weeks after the public meeting held outside in the park specifically to discuss removing the fence. The FOGG Meeting had a broad agenda, one item of which was a discussion around a decision that had already been made, following the public meeting in the park, to remove the fence.

[Mark]

There was a meeting held early one evening on the Green attended by Councillors, people from the Parks department and some locals. Following that meeting a decision was made, however the decision was made not just based on that meeting, it took into account other things like the consultation with the general public that happened previously.

[ianr]

cate Wrote:

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> Dog poo is dangerous if the dog has worms. The

> worms can be transferred to humans. Believe that

> is less possible nowadays as most people worm

> their dogs. Any doctors out there to confirm?

Toxocara canis is a thing to worry about. There's even an

article about it on the Southwark site. http://www.southwark.gov.uk/yourservices/environment/animalwelfare/toxocara.html

[nancysmum]

Mark, what consultation with what public...do you have more specific details as i get the feeling from this thread that not that many people were consulted and not that many people knew of the meeting. if you can shed any light that would be good. also you never detailed what the community wardens' area was...thanks

[p_in_ed]

My partner attended the meeting outside on the Green, one dark evening last Autumn. She reported back that the numbers in attendance were limited, and were primarily dog walkers. A show of hands was taken that evening approving the plans to remove the fence.

I attended the Friends of Goose Green meeting in the Community Centre several weeks later, where the decision to remove the fence was presented as a done deal, although there was an opportunity for discussion around the pros and cons.

I, for one, wasn't aware of any other consultation. I'm sure it took place, but it can't have been well advertised, otherwise I would have expected to have been aware that it was taking place.

My impression, from the discussion at the Friends of Goose Green meeting, was that the move to remove the fence was initiated by members of FOGG who were unhappy about the aesthetics of the fence, and by dog walkers who felt their freedom to roam had been impaired by the fence.

[first mate]

Cate,

It is my understanding that regular worming of dogs controls the parasite responsible for Toxocara Canis. The majority of dog owners in ED are responsible and worm their dogs. Nonetheless, nobody wants to tread in dog shit and I also curse the irresponsible minority when I come across it.