Conflicted litter lout on CPR

[SeanMacGabhann]

Nero's comment about snack sure wasn't graceful - but I'm willing to be a LOT of money had it been a bloke Nero would have made pretty much exactly the same comment, so: judgemental? yes. Misogynist? No

[Ganapati]

You really think he would have made reference to a man's figure?

[Strawbs]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It's not just "hostile" society which does it

> strawbs

>

> I think it might have been another facet to Nero's

> post. I remember taking a walk in Finsbury Sq near

> Moorgate with one of my staff who was having home

> problems and wanted some advice. So we were

> wandering around a lovely spot in the city when,

> mid-sentence she chucked the wrapper from her

> sandwich on the ground. This was someone I had no

> need to fear would attack me but when I caller her

> on it she became aggressive and wanted to know

> what my problem was, someone would come and pick

> it up!! (backing up Asset's point)

>

> Where does the attitude come from?

>

> (in probability, there are people reading this NOW

> who wonder what the problem is and find it

> hilarious that people get worked up about a bit of

> litter. Which is Missing. The. Point)

Was she hostile because she truly believed it WOULD be picked up by someone else and thinks of us all non littering peeps as Eco Warriors or because you called her on it? I am astounded she would have the balls to get lairy about it but then again the fact she felt or anyone feels its fine to litter astounds me also.. *thinks* Im clearly easily astounded...

Totally agree with you on the missing the point bit..

Possibly what needs to happen is the community wardens / bobbys on the street need to enforce the fine of littering whenever they see someone instead of letting them off with a warning"!!! I think police in this country and far too soft!!! In the country I came from there certainly is litter, by no means is it perfect, but there is alot less as you know if you are seen someone is going to most definitely say something to you and if you are in eye shot of a copper (who are all armed) then you will be nicked full stop!

*retreats from keyboard*

[SeanMacGabhann]

Ganapati: I would stake whatever rep I have on it

Strawbs: Did you see the thread about the person who was fined ?60 for dropping litter in ED?

Now that Huguenot is posting again, and given his Singapore experience, perhaps he has a suggestion or two?

[Strawbs]

@SM - no i didnt but I will do a search now..

[SeanMacGabhann]

here it is

The injustice of it all

[James]

Personally I think littering and spitting are disgusting habits. There is never an excuse for either.

However the original post was fixated on the woman's class. It was also mildly misogynistic, as Ganapati pointed out. This is obvious from the way she was described. I am still at a loss to usnderstand why this has got anything to do with it. If someone had posted something similar describing the perpetrator as a chav or stereotyping their race I'm sure they would have been immediately lambasted by the pc brigade.

Why one rule for some and another for others?

[SeanMacGabhann]

Because there isn't

You can claim something is sexist or class-ridden but you haven't got a pile of evidence to back it up

I guess until Nero comes back and posts his own reply we are all second guessing - by I stand by my defence of his post

He would have said the same thing to a bloke - maybe replaces luv with mate - so not misogynist

Her appearance was described to contrast her attitude to herself with that of her environment - so not classist

[James]

I find it bizarre Sean that you say we're all second-guessing yet then you manage to read Nero's mind!

"He would have said the same thing to a bloke - maybe replaces luv with mate - so not misogynist"

Um, how do you know!?

"Her appearance was described to contrast her attitude to herself with that of her environment - so not classist"

Again, how do you know this? Are you psychic?

[snorky]

I dont think this is mysogonostic, nor is is classist - its descriptive of the incident and the players involved

snorky

PS, was she a curvy stunna , a MILF or a yummy mummy ?

[jumpinjackflash]

What's MILF?

[SeanMacGabhann]

JumpingJackFlash - have a read of this.. um.. enlightening thread

Milf and more

James: you seem to WANT it to be sexist and class-based rather than reading it for what it is. I don't KNOW for sure that that is what Nero is thinking but having watched him post on here for a year or so, and having met the guy once or twice, I have some inkling of the type of person he is.. just as if I suggested banning all dogs in public places, I would know how you would react

As I said, the comment about snacking wasn't a generous comment, or even nice. But that's the extent of it's misdemeanours

[James]

Personally I think the yummy mummies are a bit of an easy target...

Substitute the description for someone of a different class/gender/social background and I think my point becomes clear!

[Cassius]

When I stayed in Israel, it was noticeable how little litter there was in beauty spots - and the young people I was staying with tended to carry bags with them and pick up litter when and where they saw it. Obviously Israel is quite an extreme example but people there were THAT proud of their beautiful country that they were willing to tidy up after others. I did do this for a while when I got back but my civic pride doesn't equal theirs.

[SeanMacGabhann]

If people are giving out about "yummy mummies" even existing then yes they are an easy target James

But if you substitute Nero's description with any of your categories above then THE STORY DOESN'T FREAKING WORK

Let's run through it:

Scruffy person tosses litter = no major surprise. This doesn't mean all scuffy people toss litter. But it doesn't make it surprising. And scruffy is NOT another word for working-class ok?

African person tosses litter = no relevance to story

Well Dresed BLOKE tosses litter = same story

The whole point about the person being well dressed and of obvious self-awareness is the juxtaposition with their actions

[James]

But the woman was not simply described as "well-dressed" (which could apply to someone of any social background).

She was specifically described as a "Lucinda" type. The description was loaded with obvious class & gender-based prejudice. Substituting the words "scruffy" or "well-dressed" would clearly not be an equivalent for this! I think you are being quite naughty and disingenuous Sean!

The only valid example you use is where the person is described as African.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Calling someone a "Lucinda-type" is a shortcut to describing someone - it doesn't raise any prejudicial instinct in me. And that's not me being naughty or disingenuous (but I do like the attempt to warm up the discussion James - appreciated)

To be misogynist he would have had to single her out for something she couldn't possibly avoid as part of her being female and make unflattering renmarks about that. He didn't . He simply pointed out that she was female. Ok he could have pointed out that a PERSON was walking along yadda yadda but dear God do we have to go down that road?

He wasn't rude about her because she was female. She just happens to female. And overweight it seems. If he had said "typical misddle-class woman - stuffing her face and dropping litter" you might have a point. And it's not a simple case of reversing that statement to make your point either - he didn't say "NO middle-class woman could ever litter or be fat"

I put it to you, sir, that you are being overly quick to shout fire in a theatre over this one... ;-)

[Asset]

what is a 'Lucinda' type, who is she?

[SeanMacGabhann]

something like

http://timesonline.typepad.com/alphamummy/images/2007/09/11/boden_mum.jpg

in my head. And nothing wrong with that. If she didn't drop so much pesky litter

[Bellenden Belle]

She's carrying a bloody yoga mat - where in the devil's name on that rocky hillside is she going to do downward facing dog?

Personally I rather liked Nero's description - it was an engaging piece of writing that set the scene well. And you know what? I liked his bitchy dig - come on, why do we always have to be so saintly on here?

As for dropping litter - I don't get it - put it in your bag and take it home. I think it's something we get from our parents actually .... I don't think I could physically drop something on the ground without the guilt killing me.

Shame - sometimes I think that's what's missing in this country - a sense of shame. (Oh God - I have finally turned into my mother.)

[Keef]

Lucinda type

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/06/04/article-1024264-0177940A00000578-136_468x400.jpg

[david_carnell]

I'm thinking more Boden catalogue model.

I bloody love the Boden catalogue for its hilarious Q&A sessions it has with the models on each page.

Jeremy models stripy rugby shirt (?60) and beige chinos (?55) - deck shoes model's own

Favourite tv show: Starsky & Hutch

When I grow up I want to be.... a painter

I'm doing this because: Calvin Klein said I was too old

Sorry, back on topic: Yeah, litter, boo, hiss! Nero, be nice. James, calm down. End. Of.

[James]

I put it to you, Sean, that you are a man of mischief!

I suppose we shall have to agree to disagree. It all boils down to interpretation. My interpretation of the post was as follows:

"Isn't it disgraceful when a posh person drops litter! What with their privilege and Boden catalogues and organic vegetables they should be walking about apologising to everyone for how fortunate they are. If it happens to be a plump woman, shame on her! It's her duty to look slim. Whereas if a male chav drops litter that is completely understandable. We should sympathise with him and allow him to get away with it. And eat as many cakes as he likes."

[Brendan]

Stereotypes cause offence to people when the people in the group being stereotyped feel insecure in their own identity.

This can be for valid reasons such as, given their socio political history, black South Africans taking understandable offence to racially derogatory language used by white people.

Or for non-valid reasons such as people being jumped up privileged idiots with a skewed sense of their place in the world.

?But this means that there are different rules for different people? You say.

Yes, yes it does. But they are not rules, just general guidelines on how not to be a dick.

[SeanMacGabhann]

A man of mischief for sure but I THINK I managed to get you to crack a smile...

I mean, every time I read one of your posts I imagine a little lapdog on your... well lap I suppose, with you stroking it and telling it not to listen to the bad people ;-)

(that was a joooooke)

As for your interpretation - you are bang on with sentence one. After that you let (IMO) a bunch of prejudices colour your thinking.. My interpretation is more like

"Isn't it disgraceful when a posh person drops litter! She's like me - I'm partial to a Boden catalogue, organic vegetable and have had a good education too! We are so similar and yet she is a litterbug! She should know better. Oooh now she's annoyed me - I'm going to take the p*** out of her size, for today I am feeling ungallant! I do hope no-one misinterprets these thoughts"

(I may have made that last sentence up)