Homophobia compared with racism

[James]

I wanted to add this to my comments on Muffin's thread about the racist remark she heard on the bus but didn't want to be accused of brushing it aside or "having a competition".

What's more, that thread has taken a different turn. But I think the following is relevant and quite scary, so worth quoting on this forum:

>>Brendan Barber, TUC General secretary, will address London?s Congress House today on the institutional homophobia in British schools.

?Schools and colleges have done much to counter racism and sexism, the same cannot be said when it comes to tackling homophobia,? he will argue.

?Despite some notable exceptions, too many educational establishments are breeding grounds for the worst kind of casual prejudice.?

Barber will substantiate his points with facts from Stonewall research, which shows that nearly every lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgendered pupil is troubled by anti-gay harassment.

?Its shocking findings ought to act as a wake-up call to us all. Almost all LGBT pupils reported hearing homophobic abuse. ?No less than two thirds reported being the victims of bullying. And perhaps most alarming of all, one in six said they had been subjected to death threats."

[KoolBananas]

Nice :-|

[david_carnell]

For what it's worth when I was at school (about a decade ago, give and take) racist language was few and far between. "Gay" was used extensively as an insult, however. An all-boys grammar school in Surrey if that makes any difference.

Sad I know. And, I'm ashamed to admit I cannot say I never did it. Hopefully we all can look back on our childhood and wish we hadn't done certain things. This is certainly one of mine. It's certainly something I regret now.

And I know for a fact that we had some gay boys there and I should think they had a fairly torrid time of it.

[KoolBananas]

At school gay comments were a regular thing, perhaps a bit more than racist ones but I feel in my experience comments expressed particularly at that age, were not necessarily meant as a homophobic insult. Many kids didn't really know what they were saying only that it was considered the "in" thing without understanding certain words' meanings. Sorry I refuse to type such words as I'm a grown up now and don't need to use such limited vocabularly.

However, saying that, where racist comments are concerned it is fully understood what is meant...

[James]

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here but I think the word "f****t" is just as hurtful as the word "n****r" when used maliciously.

[Moos]

Sadly, many people use "morality" (I added the speech marks with care) to justify homophobia, and this ranges from the extremist Bible-bashing nutcases such as the ones quoted on here recently to more middle-of-the-road churchgoers who know that racism is wrong but are troubled by a single line in the Bible, and by the teachings of the Church.

(actually, this also affects the status of women vs men, but not to derail the thread)

The Church of England is making some progress. But I wish more people would understand that their 'hesitations' and 'wouldn't wish anyone any harm, but not quite sure-isms' provide a legitimate cloak and cover for darker, wider, uglier prejudice.

[bon3yard]

I remember the term Gaylord thrown about with...er, gay abandon at school(18 years ago. Racism was never an issue really but then again I did go to school in a predominantly white city(Plymouth). On a slightly different tack it always amazes me that people who have been the victim of race hate can(and I've seen this more than once)often be the instigators of homophobic name calling. It seems that some victims of intolerance will willingly deflect this negativity onto another minority group. hatred does indeed abound...

[James]

Absolutely Moos. This thing about "conscience" (for this, read "prejudice/dogma").

As in "my conscience forbids me." (I am allowed to treat you differently because of what I choose to believe in)

What is all that about?

[Huguenot]

I tend to concur with KB that at my school 'gay' was a general insult associated with ineffectuality rather than homosexuality. I hadn't got a real understanding of what it meant.

Converseley though, 'homo' was rarely used and when it was it was considered fighting talk. It wasn't because of homosexuality per se, but more because it was associated with unseemly intimacy. As a teenage boy the biggest challenge was to create an identity for yourself, and that frequently involved eschewing all contact with others, including grannies, mommies, girlfriends and schoolmates. We were busy creating a pecking order which required independence and self reliance.

On the racism side I really didn't have a clue. In suburban middle-England everyone was white, so the usual terms of abuse had no negative associations at all. They just described a type of corner shop or portable stereo - I never considered them to be anything to do with the people.

To be honest, someone at primary school told me spunk was something you found in your shoe, and I didn't discover otherwise until I was well into my O-level year. Never found a reason to seek clarification really. ;-)

[Huguenot]

On a similar note, the word f****t I've never heard used by anyone but gay guys, and n****r by anyone but black guys, and I'm getting on for four decades now (usually describing someone else's comments of course, but I've just never heard it first hand).

[KoolBananas]

Thank you huguenot for expanding and clarifying my meaning :)

[James]

I have noticed that often the most homophobic societies and cultural groups have a legacy of colonialism/imperialist subjugation (e.g. Jamaica, the Middle East). These are often the societies where women are treated terribly too.

My theory is that where a society suffers through war and is enslaved or subjugated, its men suffer a terrible crisis of masculinity. Unable to asset their dominance and power, they take out their anger on their women and men who they consider to be "un-masculine." It's a form of self-loathing, taken out on others.

Another factor is the fact that societies that have suffered in the ways I have spoken above tend to retreat into fanatical interpretations of religions such as Christianity or Islam - as if they blame their suffering for not being sufficiently religious.

Finally, former colonies suffer a legacy of men going overseas to find work - creating broken families and boys who, in turn, grow up without an understanding of what it is to be a father - or how to be "masculine." This gets passed down through the generations. All too often they decide that carrying a knife, acting out gangster fantasies and attacking perceived "effeminacy" (including being gay) is what it takes to be a man.

It's all so sad and so very ironic - especially given the strong family bonds of the traditional African tribes.

[James]

Btw I have not heard the word "n****r" for years but have been called a "faggot" or "battyman" by intimidating people on a number of occasions, most recently a few months ago. It was not pleasant.

[MelbourneGr]

They're both as bad as each other, but IMHO difficult to compare.

We're comparing someones skin colour with sexual orientation. Neither should have any impact on anyhting you do.

At school racism was rife, and so was homophobia, difference being was with racism everyone knew why it was wrong. What I noticed when I left school was racism continued, albeit in a mature indirect way, whereas being gay is something other people grow up to accept.

[giggirl]

Just a thought regarding schoolchildren?.

I do believe that, at least in the cities, many children grow up to be genuinely colour-blind; inner-city schools are melting pots and today's parents are likely to be more racist than the kids.

Conversely, anything to do with sexuality and school children is beyond prickly. Young people need to come to terms with their own sexuality (in whatever form that may take) and that, to say the least, is a confusing time. Also, they are desperately trying to conform and be accepted by their peers. How miserable is it to be on the outside as a kid? Kids can be very very cruel. So I guess that if a young person in the school system is just beginning to think ?hang on a minute here, maybe I?m gay??; well that?s just got to throw up some pretty damned scary thoughts. It would need to be a very brave person to come out whilst still at school. It?s not a safe environment; it can be brutal. Sorry to ramble, I?m just getting to the point?.

Teenagers talk a lot amongst themselves about sex (always have). I think that?s just part of trying to come to terms with themselves as sexual beings. Certainly the gay/straight question must be on the agenda, if not in the schoolyard then certainly in private thoughts. Some use the word ?gay? ad nauseum as adjective/adverb (insulting pack behaviour?). Whilst we, as adults, view this as discriminatory, even downright nasty, is there a case for saying that sometimes they may just be using ?gay?, albeit in a derogatory way, to talk about sex/gay issues? Perhaps? Sometimes?

It is brutal and I personally don't know anyone who came out at school.

[muffintop]

I went to a predominantely white school, to really experience racism you had to be mixed race/black/non-white child in a mainly white school and have books readily available in your class like "the little black sambo", (he liked eating pancakes) (BTW did anyone else ever have that book read to them at school? or have it in school?) the only pictures of black people were ones with groups of natives standing round a huge cooking pot and they all had bones through their noses and were really dim, my teacher (primary) actually asked me, "and melinda, how many pancakes are you having for dinner tonight?", mortified! in front of the whole class.

I remember groups of feral skinheads who would just go on what they disgustingly referred to as "queer bashing patrols" and would attack anyone they thought was gay, mind you that went for black/Asian non-white people too though, they were twisted and full of hate (I grew up near the old Millwall football ground! so that didn't help, I used to go to Millwall Market on a Sunday and my brother got spat on and we never returned), but even I have to admit things are not quite as bad as that today, society has come a long way, well some members of it! in relation to both race and sexual orientation. A lot of people misunderstand and think sexual orientation or being gay/bi is a lifestyle choice, and not something they are born with, i.e. their skin colour! some people wrongly see it as well thats the choice they made so they think well if she/he is openly gay, then they should accept the reaction they get and just deal with it. Thats probaby why some people think racist verbal abuse is worse than homophoebic verbal abuse.

[giggirl]

I went to school in the late 60s/70s. I was educated privately at a school for young ladies (I actually just shuddered typing those words). It was about 95% white; the ?girls of colour? were Americans from an air base. I lived in a white area; there simply weren?t any black people where I lived at that time.

I don?t remember stories like ?Little Black Sambo? but I do remember collecting Gollywog stickers from the marmalade jars. At school any reference to black people was by way of our weekly charity collections for ?the poor starving little black babies of Africa? (Roman Catholic convent school doncha know). Tarzan used to be on TV on Saturday mornings and I?m sure, looking back, it didn?t show African people in the best of lights. It?s all very embarrassing and strange to recall these references from so long ago.

But, still, I do see with lots of my friends? kids now that they really are colour-blind because they?ve just grown up cheek by jowl.

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

James I agree with your second to last post totally.

I did a dissertation on the nature of oppression and decided it's not a black/white, gay/straight, male/female thing. A lot of gay activists blame straight society, black activists blame white society and feminists blame the masculine society for all their woes, but the reality is it's not a straight/white/masculine model it's a master model and if you can act like the master, whether you are black/female/gay you can be admitted to the elite, but acting like the master includes perpetuating the oppression of the others and distancing yourself from them and whatever oppressed minority you come from, the biggest hurdle or impediment you could have is being low class or at odds with the master model. Follow the master and you become more accepted.

A brilliant book I read by Victoria Plumwood called "Ecofeminism and the Mastery of Nature" gave me the idea for my dissertation. It's actually much more interesting than it sounds and way better, more rounded and comprehensive than anything written by some other sexless, uptight women who call themselves ecofeminists.

[????]

Isn't there a bigger issue in here which is that whilst homophobia is abhorrent and, I agree with you James, on a casual basis more widespread, gay men and woman aren't vastly overrepresented in the poorest, unemployed and imprisoned sections of our population in the way that black men and woman are, so whilst I agree that I *suspect* nowadays being overtly gay in London opens you to more casual abuse or hurtful remarks than being black, it has less bearing on your health, employment prospects and wealth......

[RosieH]

James, I'm inclined to agree with almost all of the above, but what strikes me most is something that's been said before, which is that it isn't a compeitition.

By that I don't mean that you necessarily regard it as such, just that sadly, in this world, there's room for bigotry of all persuasions. It can manifest itself in diverse and unexpected ways, and it seems that you have experienced more than your fair share of prejudice, for which I am sad.

I am neither gay nor non-white, though I have witnessed at first hand the violence that homophobia and racism can bring about. I also have up close and very personal experience of violence against women, born of the notion that it is somehow acceptable. I don't want to derail your thread, rather to say that in many areas we think we've made strides, but ultimately some people are simply c**ts - whatever your point of difference they will find in that a reason for grievance.

The hope is that increasingly, whatever the cause of bigotry, these people find themselves in the minority. And the majority don't remain silent.

[muffintop]

What RosieH Said.

[SeanMacGabhann]

swift adoption of a Keef-ism there muffintop - good work

[muffintop]

;-)

Have a wonderful summers day (all of those fortunate enough not to be stuck at work), whatever your religion, colour, sexual orientation, etc. etc.B)

[Keef]

Glad you started this thread James, I was going to do similar the other day, but it was all getting a big heated.

I think that because sexuality is, obviously, about sex *giggles*, it is still a bit taboo, and it makes big macho people feel very uncomfortable. For that reason, it is not yet as "mainstream" as race.

[James]

>>Isn't there a bigger issue in here which is that whilst homophobia is abhorrent and, I agree with you James, on a casual basis more widespread, gay men and woman aren't vastly overrepresented in the poorest, unemployed and imprisoned sections of our population in the way that black men and woman are...

At the risk of stirring up a total hornet's nest (deep breath) I think that there are three factors at work here that you're missing:

1) Gay working-class people. A huge proportion of these people have to keep quiet about their sexuality as the estates of Britain are generally much less tolerant than the Guardian-reading terraces of East Dulwich. Don't forget that while race can't be hidden, sexuality often is.

2) Where black people ARE discriminated against, it's often CLASS and not race that's the main factor. (This doesn't make it any better, but is important)

3) The problem with young black males' lack of role models (see my post above about the black male crisis of masculinity).

It's interesting to note that young black women's achievement at school and in the workplace is accelerating rapidly, leaving black boys far behind. I read an interesting study about the US recently which said that on average, black women high-flyers are soaring above white women (while there are less of them, the ones that break through are doing better and earning more).

All this goes to show that there are complex cultural factors to take into account.