Lordship Lane incident

[SeanMacGabhann]

ibilly - when you say "something seems to be going badly wrong" - what do you mean exactly?

If you move back to Asia - the economic powerhouse of the 21st century, please be assured (and feel free to come back to me in 20 years time if I'm wrong) that the money pouring in to Asia will ensure the inequalities and consumerism which drive the problems you describe here will be more than felt in Asia as well

[ibilly99]

You're maybe right Sean but at the moment the difference is startling - travel on the 12 bus everyday - went for a seat with a kid around 11 slumped across 2 seats who refuses to budge and I accidentally step on his trainer his spits through his teeth at me - every week I see some anti-social behaviour and I'm getting frankly fed up with it friends and family say move out of London - but I love this place. I?ve become a grumpy old man but I?m sure when I was that age (in Blackburn) myself and most of our peer group had a fear and respect of adults which seems in many cases and in particular in urban areas to have gone.

Time to start typewriting semi-articulate rants and post them up in bus shelters and wearing elasticated slacks ?

Clockwork Orange

It's a stinking world because there's no law and order any more. It's a stinking world because it lets the young get onto the old like you

done. It's no world for an old man any more. What sort of a world is it at all? Men on the moon and men spinning around the earth and there's not no attention paid to earthly law and order no more.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Hang on

the "difference with" what is startling?

Kids like that have always been on buses since I have been here - always

And quoting clockwork orange isn't much use when the message of that book was not so much about violence but the way governments use violence to implement draconian measures

If people don't like it, I'm in agreement with you. I don't like it either. But to say it's "worse" is wrong, even if it so happens that you personally have been a victim recently

As we hit the proper end of the recession we WILL see things get worse - that's the way it's always been as well. You can't run anywhere to hide from it

It's not some downward spiral tho

[northlondoner]

Ok Beard you are now officially scaring me - and not just through the slightly IRRATIONAL use of CAPITALS. We are all nervous about crime. Many of us have actually have experienced it ...and not merely seen it/read about it through Trainspotting. But to base an entire approach to law and order on happy smiling youths being being searched by suave good humoured French police in Paris is slightly bonkers. Hope that isnt too LIBERAL for your delicate stomach.

[pebs]

ibilly99

Quite agree. Enough is enough with regard to antisocial behaviour. Thoroughly fed up with it. Society needs to sort out this problem - much more proactively. I would love to tell these 'kids' 'what for' but we can't these days now can we for fear of something horrible happening. I've got young kids and not prepared to tolerate this kind of stuff - agressive behaviour, bad language etc. Especially when my kids become slightly older. Shame, was born in London and don't want to move out. The situation is significantly worse than say 20 years ago - that fact is without dispute. If it is disputed it's just another example of pseudo intellectual forum nonsense.

[thebeard]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

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> You are no realist TB, just OTT

> It don't work - if you can show me

> anywhere in the world or time where it did or does

> work I am open for conversion

You WHAT ?

There are many safe cities in the world.

Ah

I?m so OTT and Knife carrying thugs are NORMAL?

We?re all battling idiocy from every direction.

Unless??..

Sean you?re not related to ayatollah khomeini?

Could that be a the missing link?

Lol

[SeanMacGabhann]

When did I say knife-carrying thugs were normal? I said the situation isn't getting worse like people on here are making out.

Lets say there were 2000 knifings last year and lets say (for argument - I know it's not true) that there were 5 this year

hell of an improvement right? But if 2 of them were in ED everyone would say the situation was much worse and Something Must Be Done!!! - Even though clearly a splendid job had been done.

So the figures aren't that dramatic but the point remains

There are many safe cities in the world. My point was with a heavy handed police presence like you desire

And whatever people feel London IS relatively safe. It just is...

As for pebs and

You give the game away with "pseudo intellectual forum nonsense" - ie you already don't like quite a few of the people on here. Some things are worse some are better. I feel a lot safer here than I did in Wiltshire 20 years ago and that's a fact. And when I moved to London 19 years ago I had pretty much everyone I know tell me how dangerous it was (both people living in London and living outside) and the streets of London were much more sketchy then. And the food was much worse

[pebs]

You know absolutely nothing about me so please don't make assumptions.

[????]

...as DC has kindly found out, since the fascist police have stepped up stop & search, knife crime has fallen quite dramatically

*see also my post on football hooliganism

[thebeard]

northlondoner Wrote:

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> Ok Beard you are now officially scaring me - and

> not just through the slightly IRRATIONAL use of

> CAPITALS. We are all nervous about crime. Many of

> us have actually have experienced it ...and not

> merely seen it/read about it through

> Trainspotting. But to base an entire approach to

> law and order on happy smiling youths being being

> searched by suave good humoured French police in

> Paris is slightly bonkers. Hope that isnt too

> LIBERAL for your delicate stomach.

FGS Don?t be a tool!

Where did I say that there were happy smiling KIDS ???

You are scaring yourself by not reading what I?ve written!

I said it looked relaxed passers-by didn?t take a glance at the stop and search and the police were also relaxed smiling no arrogance no bull all appeared part of the everyday fabric of daily life.

TWISTING my words

I do not base an ENTIRE approach on what I saw in PARIS.

It was an OBSERVATION! AND a COMPARISON.

[SeanMacGabhann]

pebs - sorry but the only thing I do know about you is your statement

"another example of pseudo intellectual forum nonsense"

what is anyone meant to infer from that? I haven't drawn a character profile of you - I just said you sound like you didn't like a lot of people on here which is fair enough from that statement

I make no other judgement on you at all - although I clearly disagree on this matter

[thebeard]

Peckhamgatecrasher Wrote:

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> My daughter knows one of the boys who has been

> injured. He's a local lad, and not in a gang.

Any news on what exactly happened? why etc.

I heard friends of some of the stabbed boys turned up at the hospital kings and five of them were arrested for carrying knives is that true?

Or was that to do with some other stabbing?

[reggie]

I heard that the bloodshed was from broken bottles and not knives. Bottles used as weapons.

[northlondoner]

Twisting your words, eh, Beard?I guess that happens a lot, right? No one quite gets your point? It's all so, so...unfair. Everyone misunderstands you. All that RAGE building up....

[matthew123]

reggie Wrote:

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> I heard that the bloodshed was from broken bottles

> and not knives. Bottles used as weapons.

That sounds plausible as someone did mention wine bottles being stolen by these same kids on lordship lane shop prior to the bloodbath

[thebeard]

not only can you NOT read

you?re a bleedin comedian? too

Unfair?

What?

Like the Bully?s mum n dad who turn up at the school with the ?our little Jimmy wouldn?t harm a fly he?s a good kid and actually he?s the one getting bullied line??

Twisted?

They are bleedin comedians? too

I?m dying to hear what the stabbed kids were stabbed for drug money probably?

Peckhamgatecrasher looks to be our best chance.

But has gone all quiet v odd?

You are trying to tell us that the stabbing was for sitting or walking quietly.

LOL

[northlondoner]

...Off topic, I know...but SMG are you American perchance? Never heard a Brit use the term "sketchy" to mean dodgy. Just interested...

[????]

*pulls up chair, opens can of Stella*

[SeanMacGabhann]

* chinks can of Export against Quids Stella *

northlondoner - nah, I'm Irish. I have been loving the way you first moved down and have grown to love the place too - fancy a beer with me and quids?

* proffers a Red Stripe *

[northlondoner]

Deal. Mine's a Leffe!

[SeanMacGabhann]

Ah shoot - now I have to go out to Bossman

Give me 10 minutes

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

Sorry not to satisfy your curiosity, chaps. I will ask daughter when she emerges from her teen sleep (about lunchtime).

[LegalEagle-ish]

I've given up booze (again) to help my new diet and fitness regime, otherwise I'd join you.

Got to say, I feel pretty sick about people blaming the kids for reacting to situations that overwhelm and terrify them. I used to be scared every time my son went out when we lived on the Rockingham Estate, because I knew even though he wasn't a trouble maker and had done martial arts since he was four, he could still end up getting shot or stabbed by someone who needed to boost up their self esteem by acting gangsta.

There were always wars with our estate and the next one and even though I knew a lot of kids who got involved, they all felt like they had no choice. The levels of everyday violence were very high and the police coming like storm troopers arresting everyone, instead of bothering to find out who was a victim and who was a perpetrator, just added to the feeling of vulnerability of the victims. Most did not think the police would take them seriously or protect them, so they felt they had to protect themselves.

It's not fault of the kids who are forced to grow up in those kinds of environments, it's all of the adults who have let them down - including the ones in the comfortable suburbs who don't give a shit until the bloodshed spills onto their streets.

[Sherwick]

LegalEagle-ish Wrote:

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> It's not fault of the kids who are forced to grow

> up in those kinds of environments, it's all of the

> adults who have let them down

I think we've found the source of the problem.

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

It's not fault of the kids who are forced to grow up in those kinds of environments, it's all of the adults who have let them down - including the ones in the comfortable suburbs who don't give a shit until the bloodshed spills onto their streets.

I know the underlying issues are more complicated but I just find it difficult to have much sympathy for teenagers who stab each other with just the slightest provocation (normally in packs to guarantee they don't get hurt), self-esteem problems or not. I also find blaming everyone else except those within these blighted communities probably not conducive to solving the problem, which is increasingly becoming cultural.