Power to the People

[Marmora Man]

Maybe something for me, Keef, TLS, Mockney, ????, Gallinello, PROSouthwark and other usually opposed minds to agree on??

Walking to a meeting thru' Victoria Embankment Gardens at about 7.00pm this evening I watched couples, lovers, friends and groups sitting on rugs and benches sharing impromptu picnics. Businessmen with jackets off and ties hidden away were chatting over cans of lager and crisps, one group were sharing a bottle of champagne and the contents of a Waitrose bag, another had a few bottles of "Waggledance" beer and a rather smart proper picnic hamper and sandwiches. It looked idyllic and it made me happy.

Then came authority - a man in a fluorescent jacket with Westminster Council logo who proceeded to tell everyone that drinking alcohol was forbidden and they had to throw it away or leave. Result - a lovely relaxing summer's evening becomes spoilt and confrontational.

Why is there a need to ban alcohol? I can see the logic for banning unruly, noisy and bad behaviour, including drunkeness - but this wasn't the case. No sense of proportion, no common sense - a Nelsonian "blind eye" would have added much to the sum of human happiness.

We should all promote the pleasures of al fresco drinking and flout authority when they try to impose silly restrictions. Concomitant with this right would be the responsibility not to become drunk, noisy and obnoxious.

[macroban]

You might even get told off for sitting on the embankment wall.

[Marmora Man]

long memory Macroban

[gallinello]

Fully concur, MM.

Enjoying a drink outside the NFT a few weeks back, my daughter and I had to conceal our drinks from the eagle-eyed gaze of two para-military, Council troopers, as they swept the riverside, taking no prisoners and rejecting all reasoned arguments from theatre and film afficionados alike.

Yet another example of the excesses of the State of control?

[mockney piers]

Thoroughly agree too. That is petty and officious. I understand controlled areas where persistent abuse has blighted areas, think Bournemouth. But even with these it'd be nice to see common sense applied.

I think this is a general trend during this decade plus under this awful administration. The whole concept of responsibilty seems to have been eroded to be replaced by rules and regulations and checklists and targets and I could go on. I found your tale a bit depressing to be honest.

[matthew123]

Unfortunately we all have to follow the same laws that were imposed because of the way this kind of freedom was previously abused by lager louts and winos. Yes some discretion could have been shown by the jobsworth but then he might be thinking it's a stitch up by his bosses to see if they could sack him for not following orders.

[Keef]

Ptpdjw they could impose some sort of time rule. I can understand them not wanting a load of people drunk at 10 at night, but this just sounds like kill joy behavior.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Massive problem is "perception" these days, more than ever.

People have to be "seen" to be implementing rules and regulations they know are either archaic or not particularly relevant or just plainly nonsensical or relly petty.

Little flexibility is allowed by various institutions these days, whether it be car clampers, wardens even The Police I should think.

As part of one of my London sojourns earlier in the week I visited my friend who, initially, drove to renew her Tax Disc as it was now 1/7/09. What a game simply finding somewhere to park near Lower Marsh etc. It eventually led to me suggesting one space that only was available as the Guys were about to tarmac the road next to it. It was all hassle as she had to dash while I appeased the ( luckily ) very pleasant Guys who were anxious to start their work.

Went somewhere else and again no legitimate parking so, if you choose to travel around by car for swiftness and ease then the stress involved often makes it not bothering, which, of course, is pasrtially the whole idea.

Afterwards, I was standing outside The Golden Jubilee Bridge and sure enough Guys were being stopped taking their pints onto the side of the River, they HAD to stay within the perimetres of the Pub, itself.

Its not always easy for the relevant "Authorities" as there has been abuses in certain areas of life but it "should" be all about being allowed some leeway to allow common sense which is lacking most of the time from Guys who make the rules or have to enforce them.

Laughing the other day at how many things that I "took for granted" that I could do in my everyday life that I would not be allowed to do now.

Example would be finishing work in Bouverie Street ( off Fleet St.) and knowing our building was ocked up for the night and walking up and opening our Fire Escape, waliking alomg tp the next building and opening their equivalent before going down their stairs to depart from their building and saying goodnight to their Door Commissioner.

Probably broke 6 current rules in doing that but it made life so much easier like catching Routemasters at Traffic Lights etc...

So you'll get no disagreement from me and what a shame that a pleasant evening was soured, totally needlessly.

[Marmora Man]

Yet another example of the excesses of the State of control?

Cobden said

"Peace will come to earth when the people have more to do with each other and governments less"

An early Libertarian thinker - I agree and my political policy is: "small government, low taxes, strong defence".

[*Bob*]

Let's not confuse irritating, petty beaurocracy - like not being able to have a picnic with a bottle of wine in the park - with stuff like parking tickets, car-clamping, speed cameras and other such Clarkson-Brigade fodder. They aren't the same thing.

Tone, you can order a tax disc online in less than a couple of minutes these days, and have it delivered to your door, free of charge. You also get ten days or two weeks grace (can't remember which) from the date of expiry of the disc as an extra privilege if you do it this way. Modern life isn't always rubbish.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

*Bob* Wrote:

Let's not confuse irritating, petty beaurocracy - like not being able to have a picnic with a bottle of wine in the park - with stuff like parking tickets, car-clamping, speed cameras and other such Clarkson-Brigade fodder. They aren't the same

thing.

Tone, you can order a tax disc online in less than a couple of minutes these days, and have it delivered to your door, free of charge. You also get ten days or two weeks grace (can't remember which) from the date of expiry of the disc as an

extra privilege if you do it this way. Modern life isn't always rubbish.

I know "Bob" as I get mine Online but The Lady was worried that leaving her car in her Council Block, where she has a Permit, would gain her a ticket as her previous disc expired 30/6/09.

Thats another thing when I visited her last week another long=term resident had a clamp round his car, though he has a Permit too, as he parked in one of The Disabled Bays ( which are never used, accordingly to my friend who lives there). The other spaces were full.

Was he right to do this as there were still plenty of Diabled spaces ( never used) and where should he have parked as his Permit was for his block only which was full ( apart from all The Disabled Bays)..

Technically the clampers were right but there's another example of, unnecessary, "hassle".

I FULLY AGREE that "Modern life isn't always rubbish". A great week touring round London and Kent has perfectly illustrated that.

[Jeremy]

I think the drinking laws should just be there to give the authorities the power to tackle people are are acting anti-socially.

They should use their discretion, if people aren't causing trouble, let them get on with it.

[giggirl]

But surely it was more than his job's worth to turn a blind eye? Spare a thought.

[mockney piers]

I'd suggest that small government and strong defence are mutually incompatible. Rome's vast increase in beauracracy came about as a reslt of a shift from a campaign recruited army led by a political elite tier t a huge proffessional standing army of it's imperial era, it's thought that the latter history of the western empire that the army alone accounted for a quarter of the resources of the entire western empire.

I believe Heather asserts that wth the loss of income from north Africa going to the vandals Rome was simply unable to pay for it's huge military commitments and effectvely disintegrated as a political entity through sheer bankruptcy.

Bobbit makes a pretty convincing argument that the state nation as he calls it came about through exactly the same need, a sophisticated and expensive beauracracy required to maintain an expensive modern era (read post 1792) army.

I think he even went as fr as to suggest that the welfare state was there to ensure that the nation is healthy enough to provide an army for total war, as a result f WWI. I think that'd pushing it a bit far, plus that's what the cubs is for ;)

[DaveR]

"Let's not confuse irritating, petty beaurocracy - like not being able to have a picnic with a bottle of wine in the park - with stuff like parking tickets, car-clamping, speed cameras and other such Clarkson-Brigade fodder. They aren't the same thing."

They're not the same thing, but neither are they completely unconnected. [Warning - what follows is quite dull] Current thinking is that essentially all regulatory enforcement should be risk-based and proportionate, which means that not only should local authorities not persecute happy, non-threatening park boozers, they should also not clamp non-traffic obstructing cars, and also not pursue (or not pursue as vigorously) low risk speeding. In the latter cases, in practice, this means thinking a little bit more about how you regulate parking and traffic; in some european countries speed limits on particular roads are different at different times of day, and we already have parking restrictions which are limited to particular times. Putting to one side the Clarkson-esque "I should be able to do whatever I want" argument, I would suggest that there is always a case for asking whether conduct that does not result in harm needs to be penalised.

I did say it was dull.

[Marmora Man]

mockney piers Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I'd suggest that small government and strong

> defence are mutually incompatible.

MP - I wouldn't dissent too much from the argument that followed this statement - except that "strong defence" doesn't automatically translate into a large and costly standing military. The military problem at present is more about a complete failure of this government (and to be fair many previous governments) to match overseas "security" commitments, global aspirations and foreign policy to the real cost of maintaining a military force capable of sustaining the actions necessary to carry out the task.

Low taxes & small government - still a sensible aspiration. Strong defence to protect our perimeter and overseas interests, but not engage in foolish military / political adventures is not necessarily that expensive.

[PeckhamRose]

Back to the original first post, I bet had you stood and took a photo of everyone being happy and content you'd have been arrested too.

Pahhh.

[Brendan]

I've found the best is to just ignore the jobsworths until they call the cops. The cops will take ages to rock up* anyway by which time you may be done.

*steady now

[AllforNun]

al fresco drinking 24/7 in the great Nunhead !

[nunheadmum]

I have to agree that turning a blind eye would have seemed the better approach.

But I do wonder legally if you could turn a blind eye to office workers having a drink with a sociable picnic but move on a group of intoxicated heavy drinkers (if the two were at the same location or locations covered by the same rules). Surely the rules the council guy was enforcing were brought in because other laws didn't deal with the latter - but can you then chose who to apply them to? I wish you could but I suspect legally it may be difficult? (Not a lawyer so pure speculation on my part.)

[gallinello]

Marmora Man Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Yet another example of the excesses of the State

> of control?

>

> Cobden said

>

> "Peace will come to earth when the people have

> more to do with each other and governments less"

>

> An early Libertarian thinker - I agree and my

> political policy is: "small government, low taxes,

> strong defence".

No government, no taxes, and a people's militia!

[Marmora Man]

No government, no taxes, and a people's militia!

Anarchy - not a good political model for anyone.

[mockney piers]

I dunno, anarchism is quite a seductive idea; it's people that make it fail hence why I think anarcho-syndicalism is basically unworkable. Too many PROSouthwarks around for any chance of success sadly.

On your earlier point we're not a million miles away, I guess it very much depends on the definitions of the word 'small'.

[PeckhamRose]

I think the poor the uneducated (not through their own faults), the uneducatable* and the sick will always suffer under a government that is 'small'.

*My own made up word!

[????]

I'm at heart an anarchist - but in realty any isms (and include idealism) are uselss, impractical and ultimately hugely dangerous as well as being as delusional as religon. So liberal democracy is about as good as it gets, with its many flaws - to nearly paraphrase Churchill.