dogs off leads petition

[Alan Dale]

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[ClareC]

"I would like to know why more rounded individuals need to keep dogs. Anyone? "

Implies that the lonely and insane thing was not a caricature of the arguments given by the pro-dog lobby after all ;-)

There are lots of reasons for keeping dogs, the same as there are many reasons why / why not individuals choose to do other things.

Its a personal choice Alan, nobody should have to justify their decisions/choices/prove their "roundedness" when those decisions/choices do not harm others.

[Alan Dale]

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[ClareC]

???

[James]

Clare it would seem we have to "put forward an argument for dog ownership"?

OK Alan, can you please put forward an argument for your lifestyle.

I think he is beyond help.

[ClareC]

I think he is a wind up merchant !! Perhaps we could start a thread on justifying your life choices :-) ( In the lounge of course)

[James]

We would have to ban all mention of white Stuff, coffee bars, dogs, organic vegetables, chain stores, gastropubs, 3-wheeled buggies and designer kitchenware shops or all hell would be let loose.

So what would we be left with to discuss?

[Alan Dale]

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[*Bob*]

Alan isn't a wind-up merchant.

I'm trying to think of an appropriate word. I think the one that best suits is 'wally'.

[SeanMacGabhann]

A thought occurred to me this afternoon which has made me recant some of what I said on this thread earlier..

There is a very good example of a dog, known to many on here, freely wandering around a very public and very child-friendly establishment. And everyone loves him. It would indeed be a shame if he were to be more restricted - both for him and the people who enjoy his company

I do maintain however that dogs can be, CAN be, intimidating to others. I don't think owners should have to justify their reasons for owning a dog but maybe they will look at nervous people with a little more understanding

[Annasfield]

Wally - what a great word!!

I don't own a dog and to be honest I don't wish to as I don't have the time. However, my housemate does and I think it's great. I've always had cats and horses and since moving back to London I've not had either. It's really nice to get home from a cr@p day at work and be greeted by a dog that's extremely pleased to see you. I really missed having pets around and it's just nice to have their presence. Some people do keep dogs for company, however I doubt that this is because they are lonely.

Owning dogs is a pleasure as they have character and it's a good excuse to get out the house and go for a walk. Maybe when Alan Dale refers to "well rounded" he means that these people don't get enough excercise, because they don't have dogs......;-)

[Keef]

kingtubby Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I have to agree with Alan here, if I am out

> running on the common and get attacked by a dog am

> I within my rights to defend myself by all means

> possible? ie to prevent getting bitten can I pick

> up the nearest heavy object etc

>

> As for Keef's point, the common land is for the

> enjoyment of all people not just dog owners.

Seriously, how often do you hear about runners getting bitten? It's East Dulwich, not Baskervilles!

I completely agree that the common land is for all people. However, if there were something there that I was scared of, I'd simply stay away... I'm not comparing kids to dogs here, and I'm not anti kids. However, if I didn't want to be surrounded by kids running around, I'd simply avoid the park and the coffee shops >:D<

Maybe the way forward is compromise.... The perimeter of Dulwich Park has always been the dog run, and it's not the nicest bit of the park, so I wouldn't really want my kids playing there... Why not let dogs run there, and them put them on the lead if going in to the centre of the park (within the sand horse track)... In fact, I thought that was the rule... Seems fair. Then if someone let there kid run around on the dog run, they'd know the risks, and couldn't really moan if anything happened (which it wouldn't)! :))

[jackangel]

The term ?responsible dog owner? is an odd one because those self-labelling people seem to be very vocal in claiming no responsibility whatsoever for any dog related problems. Such dogmatism appears as arrogance when the disadvantages of dog ownership are shared by the long-suffering community at large.

I can walk across the grass of Goose Green staring at the ground, or I can admire the trees and look at what is going on around me ? and tread dog poo back into the flat. Daily on the Green, dogs can be seen ?worrying? people (nothing classed as serious).

I love the age-old dictatorship?s argument form that says if you don?t want to be bothered by dogs, don?t go up the park! It?s a classic. (Will be appearing again in a discussion near you!).

This has been a useful thread to me in making up my mind about the proposed regulation. I started out instinctively against it, but now see how the entrenched views of some dog owners remain unresponsive to the feelings of others. I shall continue to read views on the forum but, at the moment, I cannot sign the petition.

[Asset]

Obviously the wrong types of dogs on Goose Green, try Dulwich park. Much better breed of dog goes there.

[ClareC]

I have never walked on Goose Green, sounds grim :-(

I mainly walk in Dulwich Park and Peckham Rye. I never look where I am walking when en route to pick up (you need to mark the spot and keep focussed on it) and can honestly say that I have never trodden in anything untoward.

Its a shame the same cant be said for some of the pavements ( lead walked dogs ;-) )

Perhaps Goose Green (and any other problem areas) is somewhere the Council could send a warden to enforce the fine provisions of the byelaw. I would happily back that :-)

[dogowner]

Why do I own a dog? As a believer in 'all things great and small' I have both the time and the means to take care of one - and where someone was irresponsible enough to leave a lovely, gentle, obedient older dog to wander the street, I can provide her with a better life than that. It's my way of giving something back (although not the only way, I do nice things for humans, too).

Do I compare it with a child? No - I don't have the time or the means for one of those!

Do I feel entitled to let my dog walk off of her lead? No - I feel that's a right she and I must earn, by being respectful of the fact that not everyone likes dogs nor wants to interact with my dog. She, especially, must earn it by obeying me and my commands, and until she could do that, she had to stay on her lead. If we're somewhere particularly crowded or distracting for her, she stays on the lead. For the most part, though, we walk away from other people with my dog off lead and within verbal command. I'd like to keep it that way.

Is a blanket ban by Southwark appropriate? No - a majority of the dog owners/dogs would be penalised for the actions of a few careless owners, who do exist. Current laws on use of leads are ineffective and unenforced. A better solution needs to be found to address Southwark's concerns, including better monitoring of the parks and open spaces for any kind of anti-social behaviour. Please sign the petition so that a proper discussion can take place on the best way to deal with the issue at hand.

[James]

Jackangel, according to your argument nobody should own cars, because the disadvantages of car ownership are shared by the long-suffering community at large, e.g:

Pollution

Road space

Traffic (making bus and taxi journeys slower)

Dangerous/drunk/aggressive driving by a minority (since you are blaming me for other people's dog poo & bad dog behaviour I hold all drivers collectively responsible for this)

[Alan Dale]

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[Keef]

Dogowner, I like it... Well reasoned arguement (tu)

[mockney piers]

So what you're really saying James is that the moon is made of cheese, because Tom and Jerry cartoons said so, ergo Dogs should be made compulsory.

[James]

Eh? By resorting to that sort of remark you have given up and are just talking nonsense! Fair enough if you disagree but at least make an intelligent remark. You can do better than that!

You could start by explaining to me how exactly "the disadvantages of dog ownership are shared by the long suffering community at large." Nobody has yet explained this. I pick up my dog poo and my dog doesn't hassle people as she is well-trained, so I would love to know what distress I am causing and to whom.

The point about car ownership is valid, since this lifestyle also has an impact on others. As does having children. There are those who abuse these privileges and those who do not. Just like owning a dog, surely?

[Alan Dale]

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[James]

But I didn't say that at all! Do read my post again. My point was that basically, nobody has yet explained how responsible dog ownership impacts on other people any more than any other chosen lifestyle (e.g. having children, driving a car).

I'd love it if someone could explain this to me. I don't want people to be running away screaming or in tears next time I walk my dog off lead in the park.

[Alan Dale]

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[James]

Ahem. Who's going off subject now?

I see you still haven't answered my question...

Btw thanks but I do know what a straw man argument is! But it really is a bit lazy to label any analogy you disagree with as a straw man. It's what politicians often do when they don't want to answer a tricky question.