dogs off leads petition

[boosboss]

Mark Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> ok, so david_carnell wrote about Peckham Rye being

> common land and I wrote to the council this

> morning and asked:

> > "Is Peckham Rye common land and if so would it be

> covered by the proposed keeping dogs on leads

> ruling that may be brought in?"

> > and this reply came back:

> > "I am not sure of the legal status of Peckham Rye

> in terms of common land, but to answer the more

> specific point, there is no proposal to keep dogs

> on leads in Southwark's parks and open spaces

> (including Peckham Rye). This is mis-information.

> > A full statement will be issued to this effect

> today"

> > hmmmm, curious...

Peckham Rye is Metropolitan Open Land,(Council mis-managed common land). The council should know this!

Re Southwarks intent - Since the signs were erected last November, it has been denied and confirmed. Apparently now the signs were a 'PRINTING ERROR' by the sign makers. More like a Parks Management error!

[boosboss]

Asset Wrote:

Section 1 of the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 relates

> to dogs of the type known as the pit bull terrier.

> The High Court has decided that for a dog to be a

> pit bull type, it must have a substantial number

> of the physical characteristics of a pit bull

> terrier. These characteristics are listed in a

> number of places, and probably the most

> comprehensive (and that generally relied on by

> Courts) is the American Dog Breeders Association?s

> Basis of Conformation for the American Pit Bull

> Terrier. This is a functional standard which

> describes the ideal, and so the dog does not have

> to conform in every detail to be regarded as a pit

> bull type. DEFRA has produced guidance which

> summarises some of the main physical aspects of a

> pit bull terrier

From the Kennel Club.

And fortunately it's because of that, that the Staffordshire Bull Terrier is not considered of type.

[ednerd]

A blanket 'dogs on leash' policy is total b*llocks. All the usual law abiding citizens with their spaniels and labradors will dutifully leash-em-up, while your typical ignorant, aggressive owners (you know the type) with their frustrated, undisciplined and aggressive dogs will flout the laws. Honestly can you really see the type of twat that buys a pitbull (or similar) type dog, calls it 'Killer' (or similar) and dresses it in a studded collar, obediently popping a leash on the animal they have deliberately purchased to enhance their street cred?

Regardless of whether you like dogs or not, they are a part of our society, and sadly you non-dog lovers will need tolerate them in much the same way I tolerate chavs or smokers. The only issue of any relevance is whether this rule will make us and our children safer, and for the reasons outlined above, I guarantee it will not.

Can't we just make a law prohibiting idiots from owning dogs?

[Keef]

Can I just interject here to say that I don't appreciate you putting chavs and smokers in the same category ;-)

[monkeymagic]

Alan Dale, if you tried to 'pan' my dog it wouldn't be the dog you should worry about it would be me! To compare dogs to flies and birds is just plain stupid.

Woof.

[James]

Well said Ednerd.

What worries me is that it seems to be part of a trend towards more and more regulations that end up penalising the law-abiding majority rather than the anti-social, criminal minority. It seems that the powers that be are too scared to tackle the real offenders, preferring to go for the low-hanging fruit. I can think of several examples of this:

1) Penalty fares. I have been challenged and "interrogated" on several occasions for not having a ticket when it was unavoidable due to broken machines and absent staff. Yet on more than one occasion I have seen people jumping barriers, unchallenged by staff (presumably they are too afraid).

2) Speed bumps and speed cameras. I read the other day that the worst offenders of the speed cameras are never caught - they simply ignore the demands and their vehicles are probably unregistered anyway. Speed bumps affect us all and some (e.g. Peckham Rye/Uplands road) are so badly constructed that they can damage your car's suspension even at very low speeds. They are spreading everywhere - again because a hard-core, untouchable minority refuse to obey the speed limit.

[SeanMacGabhann]

And just when I had let the dog thing lie...

James - you do have a valid point about the hardcore minority appearing to get away with things but that doesn't excuse our own behaviour should we flout the law

I have no problem with either penalty fares or speed bumps and cameras. Because I never travel without a ticket nor speed. And that was ever true before the "worrying" steps you describe were put in place

I can guarantee from my own experience (and aquaintances behaviour) that not buying a ticket and speeding are not done by a small minority. Not by a long shot

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

As you can probably tell from my name, I'm a chav and am dismayed by the amount of vitreol poured on the white working class and their favoured breeds of dog. I have a staff mix called Hannibal which I usually exercise on my bike on and off the lead in Dulwich Park and Peckham Rye.

Admittedly he looks a bit fierce to people who have pre-conceived ideas of what this type of dog is like, but he is far from fierce. He has never attempted to attack anything dog, human or horse for that matter, and when he is attacked (usually by small yappy dogs) he has never retaliated, preferring to get out of the way. He can handle rough play with other, often more aggressive dogs, but as soon as the other dog gets serious he doesn't want to play anymore. He was not brought up to be aggressive, but he is a dog, not an accessory, so needs interaction with other dogs, space to run and chase squirrels & rats (which he has never caught)and stimulating regular exercise.

If I didn't give him regular exercise he would be a pain in the arse, would chew my house to bits, and probably become aggressive and possibly dangerous - as would any other breed of dog if confined, unstimulated and underexercised.

Please stop being so prejudiced about the working class and our dogs, it is hard enough in life without all your animosity and if you replaced "black" or "asian" for "chav" in some of your posts, you would (rightly) be committing the criminal offence of incitement to racial hatred, but it seems the age old elite sport of incitement to hatred of the poor is alive and well.

[Huguenot]

Come on chaps - surely the Huguenot methode works?

No legislation on dog ownership or leashes, simply charge the owners for any crimes of the dogs.

All these law abiding dogs out there can run free and poo in toilets, there's no wierdy DNA tests to prove whether it's a specific breed or not.

No problems for James or Ednerd, or even those that buy killer dogs for status so long as the dogs behave.

However if your dog harasses or attacks someone, you go to jail. It's totally up to you whether you use a leash or not to prevent this happening.

You know why you don't support this...? It's because you know your dog isn't trustworthy, and as such your 'innocent dogs' argument holds no water. Put your legislation where your canine convictions are and your dogs may run free as the wind.

[James]

But Sean M, those who flout the law repeatedly and excessively are a small minority. This has been borne out by police statistics and anecdotal evidence time and time again in all aspects of criminal behaviour.

I have no problem with penalty fares. It's the way they are administered that bothers me; another thread showed that many people were simply unable to buy a ticket and were forced to travel without one. This is not criminal behaviour. I have found myself in this situation and it's pretty frustrating. I have no need or desire to fare-dodge.

As for speed bumps, I'm okay with the ones that are properly constructed. It's the steep ones that bother me as they cause excessive wear to my suspension. Why can't we have more police speed traps along places like Barry Road instead where people regularly drive at dangerous speeds?

My point applies equally to this whole dogs-off-leads thing. It takes a bit of thought to target the true offenders; a quick knee-jerk response that penalises indiscriminately is easier but also pretty unfair on everyone else.

[Brendan]

Here?s my 2 pennies worth as a dog lover.

Keeping an energetic, intelligent dog in a small house or flat (especially if you are out at work all day) is animal cruelty and should be treated as such. People should be prosecuted for doing this.

It sounds harsh on some owners who I'm sure love their dogs but the size of your home is a major factor in the happiness of your pet. Some places are only suitable for small dogs or cats. This is why I don't have a dog.

It doesn?t matter if you have a Chocolate Labrador or a staffie with dubious American pit-bull characteristics. These animals need significant engagement and exercise or they get frustrated and will misbehave.

With this in mind forcing people to keep their dogs on a leash will most likely make some dogs more aggressive.

[SeanMacGabhann]

ChavWivALawDegree - I agree that anyone who generalises about the working classes (as many of us are/were) is out of order. But I think chav as a term is more often used to describe people (of any class) who wears a certain uniform and tries to be "bad"...

Huguenot's position on dogs is interesting. No legislation but stiffer penalties for misbehaviour? It could catch on... if anyone could find a way to catch the owners...

James: I think speed bumps are the worst and crudest form of speed control myself. I think Barry Rd is seen as a main artery but it's the narrower roads around it where speeding cars are more of a problem with poor visibility of pedestrians with parked cars everywhere etc. I can tell you however that on any gioven walk fromthe Upper East Side to LL I will see many many many many drivers breaking the law - speeding, mobile phone use etc - in no way a minority

Your point around criminals being repeat offenders is trues as far as it goes. But it depends on what is meant by criminal act. Most people tend to engage in illegal activity on a daily basis (copying home music, recreational smoking etc etc) but don't see themselves as criminals. Ticket machines can be broken and offices unmanned but so many people use that excuse on a daily basis. Im not talking about the "criminals" know to police. Just people who know they are unlikely to be caught. I get into huge rows with friends about it all the time....

And these days, at the risk of sounding like Ken, there is no reason any of us NEED to use a ticket machine. If we travel irregularly or daily there are ways of prebuying everything

But these things could be better implemented for sure

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

SeanMacGabhan - One small point. I doubt the uniform and 'bad' attitude impliedly referred to by the label 'chav' could really be seen as anything other than a working class thing. How many middle class or upper class badly behaved, loud, tastelessly dressed or over dressed people are referred to as chavs or demonised in the same way as the working class are?

[Mark]

I suggest that this discussion doesn't go off on a "what is a chav" debate, it's about the dogs off lead petition.

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

Mark - Sorry if you think i went off topic, I suppose I just wanted you all to know that blaming chavs for the insanity of the council was a bit unfair, and we love our dogs and will be as adversly affected by this issue as the rest of you.

[SeanMacGabhann]

I know many a middle class teenager who adopts both the uniform and the accent (albeit far moe common outside London)

And I know many more working class people who don't and just go about their lives without fuss

If as you say it's an exclusively working class thing it certainly doesn't represent all of working-class culture. And "middle class or upper class badly behaved, loud, tastelessly dressed or over dressed people " may not be called chavs but trust me they are called far worse. certainly in my house

EDIT - sorry Mark - mea culpa.

[James]

Sean - I'm afraid that until we get Oyster here I think lots of people will need to buy the odd ticket occasionally - without having to make a special trip the day before to get one! I don't see why the rail network of one of the richest cities in the world finds it so difficult to provide tickets. But I suspect the answer is a little word that begins with P and ends with T.

BUT I DIGRESS (sorry!)

Back to the matter in hand. At the risk of sounding snobby the majority of people with aggressive dogs are CHAVS of all races but generally white. By a CHAV I mean someone who celebrates being loutish and ignorant, has no regard or respect for other people and is generally working class. And before the PC brigade go nuts there are repulsive people of all races and classes but face facts, the the ones with ferocious pit bulls tend to be as I have described. Sorry but it's true.

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

James - so what should we call the upper class who are loutish and ignorant and have no regard or respect for other people with ferocious dogs of all kinds of breed? "Havs" doesn't have the derisory ring I was looking for to equal the derogatory "chav".

[James]

Posh people with ferocious dogs? This isn't a phenomenon I have encountered, to be honest.

In situations where I encounter posh, loutish, self-centred idiots I call them "posh tw*ts".

[SeanMacGabhann]

Leaving aside the inherent prejudice of the term "chav", James is surely factually correct that there just aren't that many "upper class who are loutish and ignorant and have no regard or respect for other people with ferocious dogs of all kinds of breed?"

If there are I'm interested to know how to avoid them

There are certainly many many "upper class who are loutish and ignorant and have no regard or respect for other people " regardless of their dog-owning status but the difference/problem with them is they don't atually care who calls them what

To keep this thread on topic but to allow the names/prejudice/acceptabilty debate to continue Im going to start another thread - which can now be found here:

http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?20,25633

[Alan Dale]

removed

[SimonM]

>>Posh people with ferocious dogs? This isn't a phenomenon I have encountered, to be honest.<<

They wear red coats and ride horses....

But, as the Council has denied there's any truth to the issue the petition seeks to address, hasn't this whole thread become redundant? (?)

[James]

I stand corrected. And you could call them something that rhymes with "hunt" as well.

[anarchyintheUK]

Alan Dale - To keep your interaction with dogs to a minimum you could carry a placard bearing your name around the park. I for one would keep myself and my dog as far away from you as humanly/dogly possible. Your posts re kicking are abhorrent and I feel the same way about you as I do about.....oh, actually can't think of anything that has "no value to me".....oh, except - Alan Dale!

[Alan Dale]

I just heard that my mate's dog died of a stroke.

He got upset when I asked him how hard he stroked it.