Child abuse - Ireland's Catholic shame

[SeanMacGabhann]

She wouldn't be the first quids!

hunca - I wouldn't say there should be NO boundaries but I would expect more robustness from people with faith

[huncamunca]

I must admit that I am fidning the new improved EDmum a rather refreshing change

What next - Manning the barricades and putting the boot into the pigs at the next Stop the City gathering ?

[silverfox]

I'm waiting with baited breath for Dulwich Mum's post on Tessa Jowell's 'Huge funding boost for East Dulwich schools' in the gossip section

[Jah Lush]

Hmmm... I'm wondering why Dulwich Mum has deleted all her posts on this thread. Has her PR told her to rethink her strategy? Perhaps have a quick image makeover, get back into character and maybe try a softer approach? We shall see. Or then again maybe not.

[Ladymuck]

100

*tip-toes away quietly so as not to wake you-know-who from his nap*

[Brendan]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

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> Why would we be different Brendan?

You know as well as I do that in some societies being catholic is as much a part of who you are culturally as being Jewish, Sikh or whatever is in others.

I don?t agree with it but when it comes to tolerance I don?t think it is ok to think prejudice is wrong against some groups but not others.

[SeanMacGabhann]

But what we are talking about there is indoctrination rather than anything else - and I wouldn't be for that. American culture as we understand it is pretty pro-gun (because of it's history yadda yadda) .

I want to be able to argue with as many pro-gun people as I like without fear of offending their sensibilities

[Brendan]

And so you should, with any topic including religion.

But saying that someone is doing ?that very catholic thing? suddenly brings into play a whole bunch of assumptions about a person based on their religion.

[SeanMacGabhann]

I don't see any problem with that. My ongoing guilt is entirely a Catholic thing which is entirely due to the fear instilled by people I was told to trust. I wish people shook me out of it earlier. But if people accuse me of being overly concerned by guilt because of my Catholocism, I can't deny they are right. it's what Catholocism DOES particularly well...

But I can't change being a bloke, white or irish (well, for the most part)

[Brendan]

Ok I concede your point. Making prejudice assumptions about people is only wrong if they are assumptions based on inherent physical characteristics. They are acceptable if they are based on the inherited cultural aspects of the person.

[SeanMacGabhann]

fixed

[mockney piers]

I can confirm that all spaniards actually DO sleep under their hats during a very long lunchtime before throwing donkeys out of church towers, so I think that's a pretty fair assumption to make.

[giggirl]

Did the Ryan report also investigate the Magdalene laundries? My aunt was incarcerated in one of those hell holes for her entire adult life (about 60 years). I?ve no idea why the family sent her there; all matters pertaining to my aunt were cloaked in secrecy and I could never get a straight answer. The most interesting answer I received was circa 1979 when my mother told me ?Aunty Nora had some problems with her monthy periods so it was best to send her somewhere?. I honestly believed, as I like to think my family believed, that she was leading a happy life with the nuns and being properly looked after.

Some time in the early 90s I found myself reading a copy of Hot Press on a flight out of Dublin. I was about half way through reading an expos? of the Magdalene laundries when the scales fell from my eyes and I realised that my aunt was in one of those terrible places. She remained there until she died. I never met her.

It is a massive regret to me that I did not go and find my aunt and see how she was living and if I could do anything for her. Without going into my reasons, I will admit that they were purely selfish. Of course now that the full facts are known of the horrors of the Magdalenes I?m really ashamed of myself.

My family were wealthy Irish landowners and that makes things interesting. The family has mostly died out and what is left of the estate drones on ? like Jarndyce and Jarndyce ? being eaten up in legal fees and taxes. It?s a process that I have distanced myself from ? they can send me a cheque when they?re done arguing and litigating. Anyway, just thinking about it now has induced a wrinkle that I swear I didn?t have ten minutes ago. Sorry to bang on, here?s my point; right after my aunt died, the nuns were as quick as rats out of a sewer to try and stake a claim for my aunt?s share of the estate. I don?t have a close family ? not much unites us - but we?re all agreed that the Magdalenes won?t ever see a penny.

The Magdalenes, Christian Brothers, parish priests of Ireland - they fucked up generations of God's children and I think we're only seeing the tip of the iceberg of that suffering.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Horrible story GG. I mentioned the laundries in a previous post but no-one picked up on it. The point is these places were not someplace where some "wrong uns" held sway - they were INSTITUTIONALLY sanctioned. That is why people are so willing to have a go at the Catholic Church, not because one or two bad priests have been caught

Ireland is obviously the focal point, being so dominated and all but I have heard a few English Catholics pipe up in recent days and say they too have suffered over many years in this country. I don't think we wil lsee the full scale of this for years

[Jah Lush]

Blimey that's scary. Makes me glad I was born English (C of E) and my parents weren't churchgoers. Dad was agnostic.

[Brendan]

Yeah, horrible. Makes me glad I was born in a country where the church didn?t actually have any hold over society like it does in Ireland.

[Mick Mac]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

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> Horrible story GG. I mentioned the laundries in a

> previous post but no-one picked up on it.

I picked up on it Sean - but I personally did not want to discuss it. I had heard stories and a couple of years ago saw the film, Magdelene Sisters which I'm sure was only a soft version of the truth but it left me with a horrble feeling.

Its a true example of where religion goes wrong. Shut away your problems.

GG - I am sorry to hear your story. You have my sympathy.

[mockney piers]

Actually I'm inclined to blame society rather than religion on this count.

Teribly repressed societies are prone to this behaviour. In 50s England if a girl from a good family broght shame she could end up wih her kid sent formadoption while she spent the next forty years in a mental home.

I used to do visit to our local loony bin as a volunteer when I was a teenage and met a couple of examples. Lovely people had become fully instituionalised by this point, and suffered the double of indignity of not only having been locked up unfairly for life, but then kicked out fend for themselves tomsave money having spent half a lifetime unlearning all those skills.

Mind you there's no excuse for the standards of care in the laundries, or for that matter in the mental

instituions of the 50s and 60s.

[SeanMacGabhann]

I thought you might Mick - but I understand your reluctance to "go there" as well. It's almost too much to contemplate, and GigGirl's post was very moving

I don't know if the film softened the reality or not but even if the film was only 50% true and was really harsh on the Nuns, it's still savage

[mockney piers]

Actually I'm inclined to blame society rather than religion on this count.

Terribly repressed societies are prone to this behaviour*.

In 50s England if a girl from a good family 'brought shame' she could end up wih her kid sent for adoption while she spent the next forty years in a mental home.

I used to do visit to our local loony bin as a volunteer when I was a teenage and met a couple of examples. Lovely people had become fully instituionalised by this point, and suffered the double of indignity of not only having been locked up unfairly for life, but then kicked out to fend for themselves to save money, having spent half a lifetime unlearning all those skills.

Mind you there's no excuse for the standards of care in the laundries, or for that matter in the mental instituions of the 50s and 60s.

*I'd say that Ireland has changed dramatically in the last twenty years. It was about 25-30 years behind Britain in terms of society relaxing and liberalising thanks mainly to money, jobs and the relative comfort that brings, as well as the information revolution, and as it came much later the pace of change has been markedly

more dramatic than here in the UK.

The in-laws are still finding much of that change difficult to cope with in the elder ranks and I've heard talk of recession met with gleeful hope that tougher times will bring the younger generation back to the church.

[Huguenot]

*Cathy Come Home

[LegalEagle-ish]

Sorry, I know some of you want this thread to die, but I just had one last thought on the subject that I wanted to share.

I don't hate the Catholic church because it's never done anything to me personally for me to feel like that. My mum was raised in a strict Catholic school and has told me of some of the sadism of the nuns.

I know other Catholics brought up over here and in Ireland with very similar experiences.

Monica loves the church and her saint Pedro and feels like they are a comfort to her and part of her fanily so is very upset about people who are angry with the Catholic church. I assume from this that she hasn't been abused by members of the church or her attitude would probably not be so positive.

Then I began to think, what must it feel like if you discover that a son, brother, father, uncle or other close family member had been raping and torturing children? Would you be right to expect the victims to show restraint in order that they don't hurt your feelings?

Or do you get upset with the people who are angry about being abused because you don't believe what they are saying is true?

I'm curious to know what you think about the rights of the victims to express their anger in this whole argument.

[giggirl]

I have a thought too but it might not be so coherent because I've had a couple of glasses of red wine.

My behaviour towards others is constrained by what is appropriate legally, socially and morally. The other night on the bus I imagined myself in a society where I was the law and that no matter what I did I was not answerable to anyone. I sat and meditated on this for a long while and when I snapped out of my thoughts I was very shaken. I felt I had looked at something dark.

There is a moment at the end of Lord of the Flies when authority is re-introduced to the children and this moment in the book made a lasting impression because there was a collective "ooohhhh I don't know what came over us" thing.

It's a dark path. Has anyone heard of the Milgram obedience experiments? I was thinking about those on the bus too. I guess I first read about the Milgram Experiment 20 years ago and, like most people who come across it for the first time, I asked myself, "well what would I have done". Would I have administered an electric shock to another human being? I want to believe that I would have told Milgram to go fuck himself and walked away but can I be sure? Sorry, don't know where I'm going with this but I'm creeping myself out a bit.

[monica]

LegalEagle-ish Wrote:

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> Sorry, I know some of you want this thread to die,

> but I just had one last thought on the subject

> that I wanted to share.

>

> I don't hate the Catholic church because it's

> never done anything to me personally for me to

> feel like that. My mum was raised in a strict

> Catholic school and has told me of some of the

> sadism of the nuns.

>

> I know other Catholics brought up over here and in

> Ireland with very similar experiences.

>

> Monica loves the church and her saint Pedro and

> feels like they are a comfort to her and part of

> her fanily so is very upset about people who are

> angry with the Catholic church. I assume from this

> that she hasn't been abused by members of the

> church or her attitude would probably not be so

> positive.

>

> Then I began to think, what must it feel like if

> you discover that a son, brother, father, uncle

> or other close family member had been raping and

> torturing children? Would you be right to expect

> the victims to show restraint in order that they

> don't hurt your feelings?

>

> Or do you get upset with the people who are angry

> about being abused because you don't believe what

> they are saying is true?

>

> I'm curious to know what you think about the

> rights of the victims to express their anger in

> this whole argument.

Legal I say this with respect, I am not upset with how the church is being criticised, I was upset with how DM visciously attacked me. I do not condone the catholic Church and the child abusers they have has masked as priests. So please for the 100th Time my grief is with the DM, not with the thread. Who I hastened to add has deleted her posts,and has lost my respect.

[Mick Mac]

That has been clear throughout monica. You are perfectly entitled to support the good aspects / people in the church and dismiss the wrongdoers. There is no basis for what legal is implying.