DJKillaQueen

War zone? People are emotive because it's a very sad and shocking event (that's understandable). It's possible to have sensible discussion within that too though.

Doesn't even dignify a response.

Not only praying but even worse...groups of men! Knock it down I say, and build a Waitrose ;-)

This isn't some assault on freedom of speech so don't make it out to be one. I haven't made it out to be any such thing. And just because a couple of people complain doesn't mean their complaints are founded. People can be over sensitive and complain at the drop of a hat. Absolutely, speculation on details that may hinder any investigation or lead to misrepresentation of the facts should be discouraged but if you read most of the posts, any discussion of details have been in response to articles published by the press. Where a post is crossing the line, you have the power to remove it. For me personally.....any incident involving 15 youths chasing someone before murdering them is what I'd define as a gang attack (whether the victim is an anonymous passer by or known to his attackers). A 13 year old turned up with a gun! What kind of 13 year old can get his hands on a gun? That in itself is a link to criminal activity (be it gang or otherwise). To anybody who works with teenagers and gangs this has all the signs of being 'turf/ gang' related. I can't see what is so upsetting about saying that - unless some people really find that too horrific to contemplate. Hoping that it was just some everyday row that somehow got out of hand....or that 15 youths including a 13 year old with a gun just happened to be out for a walk whilst a Birthday Party descended into a brawl nearby is insane. They are all clearly linked and there no possible excuse or justification for the attacks and murder that followed. That perhaps is the most awful thing of all......that a young man died for what? The senseless gratification of a pack of out of control thugs. How will his parents ever be able to make sense of that?

Then move the thread DC...it's a public forum and people should be able to discuss sensibly some of the issues such a tragic event raises. The title does not say 'book of condolences'. I don't think anyone has been disrespectful to the victims of this crime.

*waiting with baited breath* ;-)

I have to disagree. The levels of truancy and anti-social behaviour are at a high since records began. We have an increasing level of school leavers unable to read and write properly. And the numbers of teenagers being stabbed to death is also at an increasing high. Such things were unheard of when I was a child or were extremely rare (and knives have always been easy yo get hold of). Yes the majority of young people are unaffected and doing well etc, but far too many are now caught up in the culture of violence. To pretend it isn't something that is getting worse is just nonsense. And yes we should be alarmed, if even a single person is murdered, let alone three young people in the capital already this year.

The problem these days is not many people have time to dedicate to running these groups. Part of the reason is the amount of red tape, legislation and legal requirements for anyone wnating to get involved with young people. It's daunting and off putting.

In other words the media attributes to gang culture attacks which as (as far as the victim is concerned) are random happenings. There's no doubt that the media is sometimes quick to jump to conclusions, but irregardless of that, teenagers are being murdered (usually by stabbings) with an alrming frequency not seen decades ago. There IS a shift in attitude/ culture call it what you will, towards a propensity for deadly violence in some young people. There must be a reason for that. And yes, I would say drunken louts who kick in someones head on a saturday night are no different to the knife carrying teen that's prepared to use it. They both see violence as an acceptable form of behaviour and they both have no limit to the violence they are prepared to use. Gang culture is a problem in it's own right because of the early ages that youngsters are recruited into it. Sure there have always been gangs in schools, usually a small group of hangers on to a bully ringleader - nothing has changed there. What has changed is the size and organisation of those groups of bullies. That is what can suitably be called a gang. It doesn't have to involve organised crime, just ringleaders, and followers.

> How about this: Using information from Social services, and teachers (e.g.trunacy numbers) to identify those that > are at risk! Giving them support road maps that help them respect themselves, each other - reward them for when they > hit benchmarks of effort e.g tax relief, subsidised housing. Continued supprt to the age of 21. All good ideas but expensive and labour intensive....although we may have no other choice. The key here of course is mentoring. Finding things that can appeal more to young people than the kudos of the group. I'm sure a lot of young people who do get caught up in these so called 'gang cultures' actually have no desire to bully or hurt anyone but often find themselves bullied by other members of the group and then too afraid to leave. I think support and a way out for those young people could be very effective. > However, for those that are put on the support road and fail to adhere to it, or start to commit serious crime no > more excuses. Named and shamed in local newspapers, benefit entitlements stopped, harder sentencing, harder prison > environment - Totally agree. It's often the ringleaders who are the ones who have no interest in any help offered. Zero tolerence with regards to them is going to be the only solution.

The judicial system does have a lot to answer for. Similarly I was the only witness in a domestic abuse case and even as the accused was being arrested and admitted he'd assaulted the victim....he was still found not guilty. Yet another case where three young woman assaulted a neighbour of mine, because she had had a one night stand with one of their ex boyfriends (I intervened to stop the assualt) didn't go to court because they all pleaded guilty (advised to do so by their lawyers, based on my statement being that of a reliable witness) and were given suspended sentences. The point is that we have a generation of young men and women who think voilence is perfectly acceptable behaviour for the most insignificnt of reasons. THAT is a real cultural problem that we have to find a way to do something about.

Errr I think I suggested that things can be done on the prevention front.....but a cure is not so clear cut.

Indeed the groups and individuals caught up in this kind of crime are often known to each other and worse still often refuse to co-operate with Police (and a gang can just be a group of friends after all). The recent flier on a Peckham Estate after a shooting is a perfect example of what the Police (who have no other desire than to get voilent thugs off our streets whatever their age) are up against. That is the brutal honest truth. Is there anything the rest of us can do to affect that self destructive culture? That is the big question. I certainly think there is something we can do to support parents that (as someone pointed out earlier) find themselves unable to cope with children that are going down the wrong path. I also think that there are things that can be done on a community level to engage with young people before they get involved with that kind of culture. As for the rest I don't know. What seems to work for one individual (through things like existing mentoring teams) doesn't work for others.

I liked the music to Dances with Wolves (even though I can not stand Mr. Vain Costner) and Born free as well. One of the true Stalwarts of the UK film industry.

We'll probably never know why he got off the bus but hopefully witnesses will come forward and help make some sense of it all.

Hmmmm.....For me, Tannoy speakers are the best. Women have a wider hearing bandwith than men (yes even you Rosie ;-) ) and pick up more mid frequency waves. Tannoy speakers are so good because they keep the mids crystal clear unlike many speakers that allows the lows to spill over the mids. If a track is badly recorded or mixed you'll hear it on a Tannoy speaker. You'll find Bose in most UK dubbing theatres, but in the USA you'll find Tannoy.

There's a 300lb gorilla in the room!

Absolutely tragic James and appalling that a 13 year was carrying a gun. Do we really need to search 13 years olds attending birthday parties? Maybe we do if it saves someone's life.

Even better........ And it is also true that owning a tv in itself doesn't require a licence until you switch it on and watch something (which is why a licence inspection has to catch actually with the TV on before you can be prosecuted) but I can do without the TV set anyway. Remember those TV detector van ads in the 70's and 80's? All a con lol. The advertising standards agency doesn't allow adverts like that now - i.e. ones that lie.

Where have I mentioned the word black Kate? The young man murdered on Saturday morning is the thrid young person to be murdered in the capital this year. I'd say that is a problem that needs to be addressed. It is quite clear that the people involved (whatever the cause of events) were a) young and b) carrying weapons including a gun. So any discussion around those issues is relevant to this thread. Pretending that there might be some other less horrifying scenario to all this is just burying a head in the sand. We should absolutely be asking why are some of our kid's so out of control and devoid of compassion that they see fit to carry knives, guns and be ready to use them to their end means?

LOL Narnia...I have worked for the BBC and I would say that most people there 'wrongly' have the view that watching any BBC content requires a licence. Happy to admit that's not the case ;-).

Yep it would seem so and that suits me fine because I mostly watch things on iplayer anyway. Only snag is that I listen to a lot of BBC radio too.

Hmmm but then the site also says..... You do not need a television licence to watch television programmes on the current version of the BBC iPlayer. You will need to be covered by a TV licence if and when the BBC provides a feature that enables you to watch 'live' TV programmes on any later version of the BBC iPlayer which has this option... A 'live' TV programme is a programme which is watched or recorded at the same time (or virtually the same time) as it is being broadcast... OK so I'm wrong on that point it seems and might get rid of my TV lol.

Thank you Louisiana, I've worked for the BBC many times over the years......so I should know ;-) and yes BBC iplayer does point out you need a licence to watch it's content. The website states; Everyone in the UK who watches or records TV as it is broadcast needs to be covered by a TV licence. This includes TV on computers, mobile phones, DVD/video recorders and other devices.

Louisiana, you will find that a lot more teens than you realise identify as belonging to a gang or group....even if it only that of their school. And it's a culture reinforced in the music they listen to and the movies they watch. There have always been playground bullies, that stole dinner money, but what we have now are school ground bullies (because after that's just what they are after all) in far greater numbers, using knives and other weapons, backed up by their gang....who are equally well equiped, stealing mobile phones primarily, from other school children. It is a problem that is more prevalent in areas and schools containing certain socio-economic groups. Both Schools, parents and the judicial system, can play a role in changing things but as is often the case, the parents of the worst offenders are just as bad as the children themselves. Same problem as always, just a different and more deadly manisfestation and the chances of eradicating it are fraught with the same hurdles as always.