sillywoman

OK, you just don't come across that way from our posts. And I don't think my opinions deserved any sighing or deep breathing, that implies excessive patience on your part. Which, as I'm just expressing my opinion - as you did yours - is completely unwarranted not to mention unpleasant. I don't despair of you randomv - it's not my place to do so. You're completely entitled to believe what you want & state it on this public forum. I just pointed out that unless you can back your beliefs up with research - that's all it is, your belief. I don't think I deserved your derisory & denigrating response. I hope it doesn't do you justice.

helena handbasket Wrote: > randomv Wrote: CLB babies often cry less becuase they are fed before they are hungry and the routines don't lead them to get overtired... sillywoman Wrote: Hmmm, where does this claim come from & is there research to back it up? > > > > Sillwoman - 100% anecdotal evidence from myself > > and a number of other mums who've followed the > > CLB. Not entirely scientific but certainly more > > accurate than some of the claims I've read on > here tonight..;-) Well, I don't think you can say your anecdote is 'certainly more accurate' than other people's claims. Nothing is ever that definite with babies and routines. Their claims are just as valid as yours randomv - even if your experience suggests their methods haven't worked for you. It's worked for them, and therefor should not be treated so dismissively. > > I absolutely agree with this. Getting my son on a > good eating/sleeping routine (a bit late, around > ten months) changed everything in our family. We > had a very grumpy baby for all those months, and > when he finally had a schedule he completely > changed into a baby who was rested and happy (or > maybe because mommy was also rested and > happy......?) I have no issue with routines (in fact I'm quite a fan - though not necessarily of GF)& no wish to challenge those who find them useful or helpful. I'm glad you've found a system that works for you. But I am very wary of any claims of absolutes with babies. What worked for you won't necessarily work for your neighbour and vice versa. I believe it's more important to know how to recognise that what you're doing isn't working for you and how to access advice and help to change the way you manage your child if you feel you need it. Anecdote is useful, but statements like "x happens because a baby is in a routine" can be misleading, x happened to your baby, but not all babies - there's no guarantees. AFAIK there's no proof that babies in a routine cry less - in fact the only research I know of (very small scale, on the tv sometime ago) shows the opposite, the babies that cried less were the ones whose parents practiced 'natural parenting" - carrying the baby all the time (not an approach appealing to everyone for sure!). Sorry to be so pedantic, but I can't bear to see such careless statements misrepresented as facts.

Ooops sorry laurac - you're right, I did misread. :-$

I think that if the baby is in a car of any sort (hackney carriage doesn't apply) then by law they do have to have an "appropriate restraint" - i.e. car seat. I think that this applies to mini-cabs too. You probably wouldn't want to take your new baby in a car without the proper safety precautions anyway would you?

Hmmm, OK - it was one of my Mums today. I'll ask her more about where she heard it when I see her next week. Thanks anyway guys.

There's some lovely advice in this thread . . .and some who come across in print as judgmental nutters (jojobaby & randomv). GF makes a shedload of money off the backs of poor stressed out parents, and more power to her. If you want to use her routines do it - your baby will be fine. If you're not a routine person, don't do it - your baby will also be fine. None of them will remember it when they're grown for crying out loud. Vome on EDF-ers, As Keef said -live and let live.

Someone told me today that this had just been introduced. Is that right? If so when did it start?

We still use the dut-dut (channel controller) - when we can find it! (eldest now 13 & sometimes losing patience with 'family words' for things "oh for goodness sakes Mum - it's just so lame". Hold onto it while you can.

laurac Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > With my first baby I completely took on board all > the NCT stuff (or at least what the course I was > on taught) about on demand feeding and letting the > baby settle into her own routine Not sure about this being "NCT stuff" Laurac - I can't think of any teachers locally who would advise "never letting the baby settle into her own routine". Most that I know suggest 6 weeks of no routine while you adjust & get to know your baby & then it's up to you to try one, (or not) if you feel it would be of benefit.

randomv Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > As it happens, CLB babies often cry less becuase they > are fed before they are hungry and the routines > don't lead them to get overtired... Hmmm, where does this claim come from & is there research to back it up? Re GF: She has a lot of useful advice to give I think & if you can edit the wheat from the chaff her books can be helpful. I'm totally with pickle though re the 6 week watershed. I too firmly believe it's pointless and potentially distressing for baby & parents to try and introduce any routine before that point. After that it's worth looking at Gina, Tracey Hogg or whoever to get idea's on how to introduce elements of routine should you feel the need for it. Everyone is different and one persons lifestyle may not suit another. Some have more need for routine & predicability than others, babies are the same - each one is different. I am very wary of anyone who says " all babies need x" (e.g. who on earth made the 'babies should only be awake for 2 hours' rule?!) as each & every baby is as different as each and every family. The thing you have to remember about GF is the angle she's coming from. She's not a Mum, she's never had children, so she's never done the exhausting job you do. She doesn't have the hormones you have, the overwhelming need to respond to your baby's cries that you have, the sleep deprivation combined with a love so deep that you would do anything for this little bawling scrap in your arms, especially if it would just go to sleep NOW! - she's never done all that. She's paid to come into someone's home and get their baby into a routine for whatever reason. it's not a bad thing, or a good thing it's just what she is/does. As a Mum or Dad, you're starting off from a different place, so your experience of her routines will be different to the way she experiences them. To Gina it's a job - to you it's your life. If the routines don't work for you - that's probably why. If they do work for you - great. If you're happy without any routine or your baby just falls in to it naturally - brilliant. Live & let live I say, do what works for you and enjoy the diversity of other people's different views & lifestyles. The only other thing I would say is that if you're considering taking any course of action with your baby it's always worth asking yourself " is the efficacy of this action backed up by research evidence?" If not, then it all boils down to hearsay & personal preference. And sometimes with babies personal preference is as good a decision making tool as anything else!

. . .and there may well be days where you sob "please don't go to work" at the front door as he's getting ready to leave. This is normal, life with baby has it's up days, and down days. In my experience this doesn't get talked about much, consequently everyone thinks they've failed somehow, or they're getting PND when it happens to them. As long as it's the occasional day here and there then it's probably just that the massive life change that is a baby is sometimes just too hard to face alone. Reassure other half that it's normal and go easy on yourself - remember that today may well be better than yesterday! Other top tips. Food: Only plan to make things that can be eaten with one hand. better still get other half to make you something to eat before he goes to work (toast?), AND, something to put in the fridge for your lunch. Get him also to call you before he leaves work to see if he wants you to bring dinner home with him. Often the first thing that goes to pot is your eating timetable, and at this point your body needs all the energy it can get.

Poor you :'(, I obviously don't know the details of your particular story - it would be hard to comment without full access to your notes. AFAIK there's no policy of denying epidurals to women who want them at Kings, Tommies or anywhere else, also I don't know any midwives at Kings who have a 'natural birth' agenda, though maybe there are some? I think you have to be in a room on the labour ward though before you can have an epidural & for some reason (from what you post) you weren't given a room until you were already fully dilated - so maybe this had something to do with your not getting one? Don't know of course - just musing/ trying to think of rational reasons why your labour didn't happen the way you hoped. You post that you were examined 3 times on the antenatal ward; so I guess you'll know from those exams how far dilated you were, & at which point they should have been giving you a room on the labour ward/ epidural - you could take that issue up with Kings. Sounds from what you post that you could do with a clear and logical explanation of the chronological sequence of events and decisions made during your labour. You might want to ask Kings for a copy of your notes and a full labour debrief from the HOM or one of the consultant midwives?

Any recommendations for close-to-the-beach campsites down there?

R&A There is a window of opportunity during which a woman in labour can have an epidural for pain relief. You usually have to be in established labour (3 or 4cms dilated) before you can have one, & once you reach about 9cms - depending on how quickly the labour is progressing - it's probably too late. Epidurals are really only useful in the first stage. If you're rapidly approaching second stage (pushing) then there's really no point as it probably won't help you, will reduce your ability to push effectively, and thereby increase the likelihood of you needing forceps, ventouse or even a C-section. Obviously I don't know your particular circumstances, but it sounds as though you had the misfortune to ask too early & then again, too late in the process. :'( for you. HTH with understanding why things might have happened the way they did?

Errr . . . Thanks for that Michael - it's a bit 'abandon hope all ye who live in South East london though'?

I cried buckets at the first. We still have a (very embarrasing) photo of it as Sensibleman thought it so funny he felt moved to record the moment! With subsequent babes I just celebrated the freedom with all the other 'well 'ard' Mums of younger siblings.

What is the state secondary provision like?

R&A Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Thanks for your kind comments everyone. > I will be writing to kings mainly because what > happened to me just doesn't seem like a one off. > If it was down to bad luck i'd accept what > happened and move on. > however, from speaking to other > patients/friends/nct women it isn't a one off - > the same bad events/errors happen time and time > again. > > There were three main serious conclusions that i > will try and pass onto other women in future and > would be the basis of any letter i write to > kings.... > > 1) If you want an epidural - ask a doctor > 2) '1 in 2 episiotomies get infected' - this is a > quote from a midwife - push for proper salt baths > or equivalent if you're still in hospital. I was > denied this and just told to rinse with water. > Again if you think you have an infection ask for a > doctor. > 3) 'More than half the babies in special care are > in for dehydration' - quote from a nurse in > special care. - push for a proper breast feeding > counsellor and do not rely on midwives who do not > get trained in breast feeding > > If i had been told any of the above i may have > been home for xmas instead of both of us lying > sick in hospital > > Consistent care may not have helped as at least > the high staff turnover meant i was exposed to the > good midwives at some point during my > (preventable) 7-day stay Number 3 = fantastic advice, I would just say though that some pretty comprehensive research has shown that salt baths/ washes have no measurable impact on the healing of wounds or trauma's. It will heal just as quickly with clean water as with salt water. So actually in that instance the midwife was right. But I guess if salt water makes you feel better, then go for it. Not intended to detract from you experience in any way.

Have also heard that The Birth Centre have a special fund so that women who have had previous severe trauma who might not be able to afford the full fees can apply for special consideration to be part funded by them. Might be worth asking them about?

Vangough, are you registered to have your baby at Kings, or at Mayday? I know that Crystal Palace is - as you say - something of a black hole for midwifery care, but the key to getting the antenatal care you want would seem to lie with continuous contact with whichever hospital you are booked with. You should (as you know) be seeing a midwife every 4 weeks at his stage in your pregnancy and if you're not being offered that by Kings/Mayday then they are putting the health of you and your baby at risk. I would suggest a quick and urgent email to the head of midwifery outlining the care (or lack of) that you have received so far and perhaps explaining the reasons for your anxiety. A bit of foot stamping at this stage may well pay dividends - as I said before, continuous contact is the key. Get the contact details of a key person (if it's Kings I can help you with that, just PM me) and email/ call every few days until you get your concerns properly addressed. For the birth itself - The Birth Centre is absolutely lovely and will give you the care you want, but at a price sadly. A cheaper option, & one that might work very well for you, would be a Doula. A woman who has had children herself, who is also trained as a birth supporter. She acts as friend (both to you and your partner), advocate and general helpmeet. They visit you a coupe of times before labour to get to know you & discuss your concerns/ hopes for the labour & birth, then they arrive once you go into labour and stay with you until the baby is born - however long that takes. You can also arrange t=for them to come after the baby's born too. Again, I have a list (somewhere) of registered Doula's in SE London, PM me if you would like it. Postnatally, Kings aim to do at least 3 home visits to Mums and new babies in the first 10 days - usually they're pretty good on their postnatal follow up care. If there is a health issue for either Mum or Baby then they will visit more often. you may get different midwives at each visit, and yes, you should be prepared to have to repeat your story to each one as R&A found. They do write it in your notes, but they prefer to hear it from you as they get a better sense of issues that are important to you that way. After 10 days your care is usually passed on to the Health Visitors and GP's (though the MW's can keep you on their books for up to 28 days if they think you need it - they're not trained to keep you beyond that point). I don't know why no-one visited you last time - "too busy" doesn't sound right - I would be questioning this hugely, as again, no visits at all is very dangerous & there are new baby checks that need to be done (were you asked to bring your baby to a clinic at the hospital perhaps, sometimes they do that at Kings)? Anyway, if you stay with the NHS then it sounds like you'll have to be quite pro-active in finding out exactly what care you should be getting and making sure you (and your baby) get it. If I can help you do this in any way please PM me.

Aha, all becomes clear! Thanks for the clarity FRM.

millsa Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I recently gave away a tumble dryer to someone via > the forum who asked me which bits of the forum I > like, and gave me a proper contemptuous look whe I > mentioned the family room, saying: I never ever > ever go THERE... I was so gobsmacked I didn't say > a word, but now I wish I hadn't given her the > tumble dryer for free! Don't worry millsa - if she lives in ED long enough I'm sure eventually the lure of the family room thread will overwhelm her (highest birth rate in Europe & all that). Probably loads of us were like that before we saw the light of a life filled with poo, no sleep and sacrifice to small-ones-who-must-be-obeyed.

Why stop at handfuls. Might push myself - a whole bag maybe?

Family Room Moderator Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Good work by ClareC, she beat me to it. > cheers and Happy New Year to all > FRM Eh? Sorry FRM, you've lost me. Have I missed something on this thread?

There used to be a luuuurverly male midwife at Kings - some years ago now. I didn't have him at any of my births, but had the same reservations as have already been mentioned about male midwives in general. Once I'd met him I quickly changed my mind. He was so fab, calm, encouraging, supportive and humorous. I'd rather have had him than some of the dragons/ jobsworth-julies I've come across (mentioning no names -it was all a long time ago & I'm sure none of them practice round here any more!).