SeanMacGabhann

I can only refute the charge that i am agin trade and investment so many times before i feel the need to do something more useful. . . the point is not to argue against capitalism but to harness it for as much good as possible before we do run out of resources or come up with a better plan. so we have established that the scandancviam countries are capitalist countries. At last. Now can we look at how they do some things a little differently for the benefit of their citizens while seemingly managing to avoid everyone being on the bread line? Can we? Great. . .

Jeremy have another look at mockney s post. It illustrates as real life example of self satisfied over paid city bonus types who were confronted with evidednce that the bank would have generated as much money if they never existed.

Downsouth - ahhh - a chance to talk of more relaxed matters ;-) If you are coming from the Village you could end up at the library - so the Plough is definitely in the "nice but not fancy" category these days after the recent re-opening. Very big garden area at the rear. If that's a bit too far from the mainstream then wander down LL and have a look at Liqourice - bit of a shaky recent history but appears to be on the mend. Small area at the back is outdoors but quite pleasant on a balmy early evening Franklins would be a recommendation from me but maybe too fancy - have a look at the menu anyway Green & Blue would also be a very nice spot - and if you don't fancy the food there you can always bring in food from anywhere else for ?3 If you got to the end of LL and didn't find anywhere amongst the rest of choices you could try The Herne or The Clock House Comedy wise - it's a darn shame that the East Dulwich Comedy is currently closed for refurb until October - it's a great night out. I would say the nearest bet for good comedy would be Balham (Banana Cabaret at the Bedford) Just saw the Beautiful Thing reference - echo BB's recommendation .. "That so disempowers you"

Out of interest, is there a country which better represents the kind of politics you seek MM (I don't mean that in a "why don't you go there" way - I mean just to compare the outcomes) downsouth - but they needed the injection anyway - entirely because of their own lack of self-restraint in slicing up the debt bundles they so eagerly sold. It's a bit like me saying to my bank "well yes I have mismanaged my account atrociously, but if you wouldn't mind extending my overdraft at your ruinous rates for as long as I need it that would be swell" And yes it will be of benefit that the whole pension/economy doesn't go down the tubes but really - it's their own fault and still they pay themselves massive bonuses (oooh - linkage to the "other" thread)

It is not finite ... so .... therefore infinite???? I feel so close to having my word changed, and yet so far....

Lounged anyway...

Most definitely agreed ! I mean by all means use it as an excuse for a party but anything else is just...wrong

whoah - I turn my back for 2 minutes and how many replies??? In order the (I think!) Jeremy: my point exactly. Limited amount of top jobs so if we over-compensate those people ther is less for the majority. Plus there was a genreal feeling amongst the Slytherins (oh come on I mean it well ;-) ) that if only people pulled up their socks they too could be in the money, when mathematically they just can't Alan - I presume you mean there IS a finite amount of money to share out? In any case I don't thin we need to reduce the obsecenly wealthy to penury and bread queues - such melodrama! To take a tiny example, in the recent budget the abolition of the 10p tax band was at the expense of the poorest and used to pep up those well off. It wasn't a huge burden on the middle-classes was it? Dave R and Jeremy Pt 2 - I'm not against a market economy. I think I've said that a number of times. Instead of holding up a communist/soci-alist state I have already used Scandanavian market-economy models (and to a lesser extent the European model) as a "fairer" example of a genuine stakeholder society. Speaking of fairness Downsouth - indeed the definition is up for debate. But everyone on here knows exaactly what I'm talking about. And to rebut (if I may) the crime wouldn't reduce, again I refer you to countries outside the US/UK model which manage to incorporate a free market into a fairer society (speaking of free markets and US protectionism... oh that can wait until later). Also re: your education point I can agree that it is the best starting point but once again - even if everyone did their utmost and there were no slackers, some will be better suited to the top jobs, the so-so jobs and the plain shockers - why condemn them to penury of they just aren't equipped? There lingers a nasty condemnation of poor people as deserving of their fate and that ain't always so

Agreed MW - venue not my fave either but it is upstairs so should be a bit different. Don't forget to bring your music player of choice and share a few tunes with the rest of us (I believe that is one of the ideas of the night)

oooh - venue confusion at the last minute... I'll continue to watch this space MW and H - having introduced reiki into the conversation I assume you 2 know each other or are aware at least. H - I should warn you that MW may have forgotten how cynical I can be.. ;-)

"I would rather that than the council continued to drip feed and play nanny to millions of low wage earners." I can only assume you are opposed to the finacial institutions asking the Bank of England for a hand out in their time of need?

Really - I can sometimes waffle on and lose my point. I'll try harder "Your are advocating something that has no basis in anything" Bit hard to defend that as I'm not sure what it means "can't simply take from others so that you can feel good about yourself" Who is suggesting I feel good about myself, or that's my motivation? One doesn't have to be a devout communist to point out that by spreading money just a little bit more evenly we might have a better world. From a selfish point of view alone, a fairer society means I'm less likely to get burgled/mugged. Consider it insurance What is it I am seeking? Utopia most likely. Which is never achievable but we should strive for it and not shrug and say "I'm all right jack" I envy no-one. I don't mind high salaries at all (why some of my best friends etc etc etc... joke!) I disagree completely that the gap between poor and rich doesn't matter at all - I would go further and say it is precisely that which defines us.

Let's say (for the sake of argument) we know for a fact that mankind has nothing to do with climate change. We are surely agreed that something is happening with climate tho, right?

"Big if. If that happens then we'll see..." You're right of course - let's never, ever think ahead and use the collective wisdom of thousands of years of civilisation.. sigh It is heartening to know that if everyone got their act together then all of those office cleaners and supermarket staff and child-workers in Asia would no longer need to do those jobs because they wouldn't be necessary anymore - by just working a bit harder those jobs become redundant - marvellous

To be honest, as far as the case goes, I'm not that interested. I would love for the girl to be ok but almost everything else is speculation with all of the temptations that brings But dwelling on the details of the case (or any horrific crime) always seems a bit ghoulish to me. We will never be privvy to any of the full details, just a bunch of official releases to the press and the hysterical spin on those by the more prurient members of the media It's all very grim anyway... But let's not put extra locks on the door because of it - abuse of children is as old as the hills - this much we do know

time for a recap then methinks lest hyounan turn up on his/her own By the way H we aren't usually this ho-him about it - the proper monthly drinks and the forthcoming 1st birthday party on the 21st are all humdingers Citizen this was your idea - you still on? Georgia - you seemed keen - you still on? I reckon I might make it for on or two but reserve the right to fall asleep at a moments notice (my big week transpired as predicted) Brendan? BarryRoad - looks like we'll see you anyway Have we got a time for this (I'm more likely to drop in on way home but if I'll be Seany no mates...)

ok - so a few of us did latch straight on to your opinion MW - soz As MM points out you can still do that - if people choose not to then that is more likely to be the influence of media reportage than anything so mundane as facts. The reason your opinion eleicits interest is I would argue down to 2 things 1) there is a suggestion (I could be wrong!) that you think the world is going to hell in a handcart but you wish this wasn't so. Take comfort from the fact that it isn't even if you thnk it is 2) In big media cases such as this there is a pressure to "do something" - so badly thought out legistlation, curbing normal freedoms and encouraging further suspicion amongst strangers arrives, thereby creating the very world we ALL wish to avoid. That is why many of us are so quick to jump up and defend reality versus perception

MW - that is slightly overreacting What is this reaction based on - children are no less safe now than they ever were

downsouth if that 80% of children you mention did actually aspire to achieve, so we had 100% aspiration, how would they all fit into the well paid jobs? Which comes first, the lack of aspiration or the realisation that the system is designed toreward the top percentile and REQUIRES that the majority are doing much less-well paid jobs?

Scotland v Lithuania 3-1 England v Israel 2-1 Latvia v Northern Ireland 1-1 Slovakia v Republic of Ireland 1-2 Wales v Germany 1-1

What can I tell ya... no point living in London if you don't take advantage

That is some beer list on The Old Crown's page Brendan - kick off? In this place? Between you and me?? I doubt it ;-) American bars seem to do the bar/bar-stool thing very well in my experience. I find it much easier over there to grab a stool and end up in conversation withsomeone nearby It got to one stage where a particular bar in NY recognized me after a 6month absence and put the pint of stella on teh counter before I ordered If I ever get to Vegas, I've promised myself I'm going here: http://www.doubledownsaloon.com/ Back on topic again: (thought I was in the lounge for a minute) I think I drunkenly suggested we club together for the CPT one night and everyone stared and said they had all thought of that several times. The rumours today suggest a happier outcome than I feared (ie full closure) Here's hoping the vibe and the staff remain

As I came down Dog Kennel Hill this morning at 1am on the 176 I remembered your post macroban and thoughtto myself "must focus must focus" but as soon as I got to East Dulwich Grove I drifted off again - doh BTW - 176 from the strand to The Plough - 25 minutes. Night buses can be soooo handy

I do know where you are coming from Brendan - but in truth I have had several random discussions in The Plough (with strangers) so I don't think we are as far away from the original pub idea as all that

To stand up for politicians a leeetle bit here - when we crave "conviction" politics we seem to think we (the electorate) are divorced from this decline in political standards As far as I can tell there aren't many conviction voters - rather, a mass of self-interested, self-contradictory consumers. Which may bit be a bad thing to some people, but it would explain why we get the politicians we do.