Sephiroth

I think realigning slowly overtime will be the path chosen - but I don't expect all of the usual suspects to be happy about it and given the problems they caused before brexit and since - I don't know how stable a path this will be domestically I would favour poltiical leaders talking about the cost of the barriers/lack of control in decision making and commission regular polling on possibility of a second referendum Any way forward is fraught - but not sure we can sustain current situation for long (3 prime ministers in as many years with possibly another one on his way? This is madness)

"At least outside of the EU, the UK's volatility is its own, not inexcroably liniked to the ups and downs of 27 other nations." but because of geography, trade, politics and yes culture, that isn't true "he UK as one of the stronger, richer nations within the EU was invariably not the benficiary of this pooled approach to volatility." it entered, begging to join, because it was on it's knees. It prospered in and because of eu membership. If I wouldn't describe the UK as prospering in 2016 it would be because of 6 years of austerity programme. But it was still in a better place than it is now (or will be in 10, 20 or 50 years). Even lost it's credit rating If Labour had been elected in 2015 and overseen the level of financial hit this country has actually taken, people would be absolutely livid

Sorry Cat - that is just a word salad without any real meaning. And exposes you as a little more extreme than even I had figured

"In other words, a form of Brexit that could've happened before the evangelical cranks took over..." Doesn't that leave the UK as a rule taker rather than a rule-maker as part of the EU tho? Isn't that one of the big no-nos (and not just for extreme leavers?) It's why I don't think this gentleman's brexit can ever exist - the contradictions never survive contact with reality and the diametrically opposed multi-headed factions of leave Whereas everyone who voted remain knew 100% what it was they were voting for - by definition. It was already A Thing

"Did all remainers have the exact same view of what the country and EU relationship would look like in 5 years, had we of remained? " We had been members for decades and were prospering - remaining was a known quantity. 27 countries continue to do it. It's a facile argument No other country in the word is putting up barriers with it's closest neighbours and inflicting financial damage on itself

General elections not same as referendums Referendums should be about deliverables available to and within the power of those holding referendums The 2016 referendum as presented and argued was not deliverable by uk govt We have left the eu. That much is true. But with none of the promised benefits. With many many many downsides glibly dismissed by cat in his longer post above. And with no seeming mechanism to rethink (unlike referendums in other countries or general elections in this country) Oh and also with us not even implementing all of the rules - ie goods are not yet checked coming into GB. more barriers to come If the country isn?t on fire, it?s because we signed a deal and postponed for several years most of the mechanisms of leaving. So yay. Not on fire. Whoop Just years of continued decline (and ridicule)

One part of the UK has outperformed the rest Can you guess which one? Clue: it?s the part that brexiteers are trying to drag down with rest of them whilst claiming simultaneously that the outperforming part is suffering and needs to be renegotiated https://www.ft.com/content/3b5059c4-4ef1-44d1-ae1f-43a875efb7ca

Obviously these things exist for further flung countries - but that's the crucial point People don't visit those countries as regularly in as many numbers - it's baked in and has effectively always been thus What's happening with countries on our doorstep is that a previously frictionless and free process is now neither of those things. And as well as forms and money, there will be longer queues at passport control. People who go to Europe regularly will both chafe at this and wonder what the quid pro quo is. so "But actually it won't be all that different from how UK citizens have always travelled to countries in the non-EU world for decades.." is true and yet meaningless. People travel to the EU very differently to how they travel to non EU countries Why is it govt responsibility to prepare people? On a high minded level, it's because the govt members promised "Exact same benefits" in referendum and as recently as 2019 election promised Brexit would be done - which it has been and many people think it is. New barriers to travel from next year won't be welcome From a less high minded/govt self preservation perspective - when people get unhappy about something they don't expect they tend to blame the govt, wether it's fair or not

travel to EU looks fun from next year key point in the article is how unprepared UK travellers/govt are - so expect much kvetching https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/world/post-brexit-travel-systems-uk-not-prepared-checks-channel-tunnel

"Sephiroth constantly twisting the focus of the discussion with general 'whataboutery" to avoid ever having to make any concessions on anything. That's a fact too." I'm doing noting of the sort - you said some remainers are denial about any benefits of leaving EU. I'm one of them. But this week has in fact presented a benefit - so I'm merely highlighting this benefit and asking what you and other leavers would like to do with this benefit Many remainers worried about a lowering of standards without EU oversight - and we were told that was rubbish - UK would look to improve standards My point is a fair reference to that - I simply don't recognise how I'm whatabouting or twisting anything I would have thought an enlightened leaver would leap at a chance to agree on a benefit

brexit promising sunlit uplands but leading to very much shady woods is a fact - like the law of gravity. Trading with nearby countries and the barriers therein compared with half world away? That's a fact - a known fact. Economists talk about it all the time. Just because leavers don't want to acknowledge it doesn't stop it being a fact anyway - opportunities for the UK outside EU A more welcoming stance on refugees? yes or no? Does UK want to lower EU standards or does it want to exceed EU standards?

"(the one thing this week that could demonstrate the benefit of UK leaving EU - treating refugees with more care than EU does, is exactly at odds with the main driving force of brexit itself)"

Brexit govt will have to come up with the goods somehow - that will need cash. And given the official LONG term forecast, not easy to see where that money is going to come from Country is going to just continue to slowly slowly decline https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/oct/28/brexit-worse-for-the-uk-economy-than-covid-pandemic-obr-says

"Such a massively complicated economic, political and cultural issue with endless different strengths, weaknesses, threats and opportunities. " That wasn't how it was presented in referendum now was it? "But...some random bloke of who posts on a community message board has boiled it down to a binary outcome. Right or wrong. " the referendum presented it as a binary choice - with no nuance or going back. not me But I'm not alone as some random bloke on a local community - 6 years after referendum and with no main political part representing the "this was a shit idea", it's people like me who are in the majority, not you. You will have seen all of the polling just like I have. So - nice try trying to isolate me as some lone outlier https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/ And my comparison with gravity isn't laughable - soz. When I speak of economic, political and geographic gravity those are all things. All ignored by you (and this govt) It's not like other countries are queuing up to do same is it? That was another leaver forecast - "once other countries see..."

you paraphrase as badly as you rationalise no-one is a righteous truth teller for pointing out laws of gravity People who disagree with laws of gravity aren't just acting in bad faith or someone I disagree with personally - they are just wrong And the brexit pursued by this country is ignoring economic, geographical and political gravity. This isn't something people can disagree with - it just plain is "But I suppose to be fair, there plenty of remainers who believe there is 'not one good thing about brexit'.....which is equally as misguided as beleiving your quote above. it really isn't as EQUALLY misguided - on a balance sheet the pros and negatives are in no way balanced And as a remainer I did point out a potential benefit of Brexit in my previous post - it's just counter to why brexit happened As for the other brexit benefits - threads like this have been going for years - and you haven't been able to pinpoint/implement a damn thing. It's all just "someone in Germany said FEDERAL EUROPE!" or "in 10 years Rodney we'll be millionaires"

"You spent months earlier this year regularly posting anti-brexit soundbites on here when no one else was replying/engaging But 'Catty' does the same and it's juvenile. What's juvenile is mocking the idea that it takes years for an economy to adjust to such a seismic change...much more fun to just jump on any bad news as 'evidence' that you were right and others were wrong..... " there is so much wrong with this I post multiple example of how brexit is a shit idea - because it is Catty doesn't "do the same" at all. There are no endless posts of Catty (or anyone) going "see this is how brilliant It is" What you DO post is bad-faith articles or extremely dubious origin and speculative nonsense. Banjaxing a countries economy because someone speculates "see it WILL BE A FEDERATED EUROPE" is not a rational or balanced action The economy of the UK isn't going to magically "adjust" over a decade or two. Or ever (and as DR points out - that wasn't what was promised. That certainly isn't what 52% voted for even if you did) The Uk economy will only adjust in a positive way if it stops pretending there are no problems and engages properly with EU countries - as it is we have had nothing but UK blaming EU for everything. Why can't you admit that the UK economy is more likely to adjust in a negative way? The answer is because your brain won't allow you to admit you done f**ed up. Because you, and the 52%, and this govt, have done exactly that (the one thing this week that could demonstrate the benefit of UK leaving EU - treating refugees with more care than EU does, is exactly at odds with the main driving force of brexit itself)

amazing after the shitshow of the last few weeks, from mediocre GOP, awful CBI speech, forecasts of permanent 4% hit t UK economy directly due to Brexit, horrendous treatment of refugees and tone deaf reactions to France and Ireland, Catty resurrects this thread with juvenile Spectator-lite garbage still jam tomorrow Even Fraser Nelson in Telegraph is (badly) wondering if Brexit wasn't so smart after all

"the original is a great film" to my surprise, a recent rewatch has made me rethink this. I've always loved the movie, saw it at time of released and rewatched many times for a good few years after But these days - not sure it stands up Apart from that, I'm in agreement with your viewpoints.

I think in this instance, you are going to have to start from scratch Rather than using a specific Browser to remember your passwords in future it might be worth looking at some of the 3rdparty cloud based options like 1Password or mSecure - which means you can access them on any other pc/device as well

I would question that "similar" rent and wages - a city centre pub in Sheffield is paying similar rent, rates and wages to SE22? And charging significantly less?

I?m happy to be on same side as Diablo rouge Again, he hasn?t taken his country down a uniquely awful path, damaging it reputationaly and economically for generations. All he has done is call you out on your nonsense Do you see? Not The Same Thing At All

The remainer in that video from 5 years ago has done literally no harm Cummings, and hardcore leave believers have done untold damage. And yet they will get to say ?10 years time?. And when 10 years pass and we are in dire straits, they will blame implementation or bad governance and shrug Ive said before. But it?s an unforgivable position to hold in 2021

Plucking some random 5 year old video of a kooky remainer versus the ramblings of one of the main architects of this catastromess from a few days ago are very very different things If you still make the same arguments as Cummings does now at the end of 2021(our glorious future is just 10 15 years away!) then you should be asking yourself some serious questions. I know you won?t.

Not even remotely comparable

?I?m a cynical old queen who has bitter takes on everything but can?t at any point lift my cynical glasses and look at hard cold reality? Jesus wept Prices in pubs are going up because of massive inflationary reasons. 3 p off duty doesn?t even begin to compare Serious question. Do you honestly expect pubs to lower prices by 3p a pint. Let?s imagine YOU ran a pub over last 2 years. How do you think you would balance your income and outgoings?