Sephiroth

"Sephiroth Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > amazing what can happen if, after 4 years, a > country is asked if it has changed it's mind about > a decision it made 4 years ago Repeat after me 'a referendum is not the same as a general election'....." I can only imagine how pleased you were with yourself when you typed that ;-) But it remains a glib reponse to a extremely serious situation When I say a referendum is not the same as an election, it's clear I'm referring to the fact that elections cycles are the democratic norm, well-established and are able to be reversed in subsequent elections - people can be upset about their outcome but they can be judged and reversed. Johnson got his 80 seat majority last year but there was no movement to nullify or recount the election result Referendums - specifically the shape and manner in which it was handled of THIS referendum - throws all that out the window. It's a massive, self-inflcited wound at the best of times, and criminal in the middle of a pandemic. Any other grown up country would have built in thresholds for such a momentous decision, or a mechanism to ratify. Indeed several leavers talked about this ratification pre referendum And it remains a referendum built on an undeliverable promise. It is not a referendum about divorce, abortion, gun-control whatever I know all of these are old points. But they remain as factual and true as ever That referendum will destroy the united kingdom and SHOULD be reversed before it's too late. And that is something that is now near-impossible but still something we could work towards. people like keano are too infected with the Sovrin-T virus to ever see that - but most sensible people can

amazing what can happen if, after 4 years, a country is asked if it has changed it's mind about a decision it made 4 years ago

I do wonder if there is anything else out there in the air which is about to crash into unescapable reality after 4 years of people making excuses for it

he's never not had an "out" before whereas there is no escaping this harsh reality

Watching Trump and his supporters turn on Fox News illustrates exactly why the message "liberals need to listen and understand" is just a folly We can surely all agree that Fox News has been nothing but an ally of those Trumpism - but when they report an objective truth, supporters go crazy. There is no reaching many of these people

my typing - goodness me

excatly - a normal, status quo election cycle has promises and getouts for all parties The elected government will be held accountable to it's manifesto and face electorate again A referendum needs to be something that a givernment can deliver - eg a change in divorce law or decriminalise certain drugs But promising a painless exit from main trading bloc - which is something that wasn't in the governments power to grant - and no way to reverse it? That is a flat out undemocratic decision, in no way related to democratic norms

repeat after me: "a general election is nothing like a referendum"

What seabag said Before we left se22 we spent months and months spending weekends in some very dull (and a few very bad) places Don?t do a tourist day trip. Go to a town. Preferably stay overnight. Check out supermarkets and local stations

Everything Quidsy says Apart from maybe - had Starmer (justifiably) jumped ship during the Starmer era it would have strengthened the Corbyn position and we would still be down that rabbit hole By opposing from within, by being clear but compromising he positioned himself to cure the disease Now I?m looking at our ruling party and wondering who their Starmer is. Can?t see anyone

Nobel peace prize? Go on. When was this?

Corbyn behaving exactly as badly as I expect him to But looking at the endless shite from his followers on social media of all kinds is genuinely depressing

Remainers get a lot of stick for being out of touch But how can anyone read UG and think ?he has a point yknow??

although I would say "unnecessary" is suggestive of an unpleasant malady that will pass I still don't think most people have reckoned with the interruption, damage and uncertainty to come

East Dulitians

Nothing KK said indicates he is a lefty. He is just pointing out objective truths. Yes Johnson won a landslide. Against the worst leader imaginable But winning is not the same as using power wisely. And Johnson just isnt. He is awful. And if after this year if you can?t see that the it speaks badly of you Many lifelong tories can see how awful he is and are embarrassed. So don?t just reflex ?lefty nonsense?

plus tier 2 hasn't really worked anywhere plus tier 2 is worse for hospitality than tier 3

We know some things - infections are rising in many places. So in that sense the government isn't alone However - since the very beginning, it has tried to DO the least possible, AND weeks later than it should As we see other parts of the UK trigger circuit breaks it is inevitable that England will do the same at some point - so why not now? But that takes us to second part of the problem - yes a circuit break would help reduce infections. But that is only useful if you use the time wisely. And we have seen over the summer that apart from spaffing money and seeking surface headlines, this government hasn't used time wisely at all So I think we will limp along until January. When, whichever way Johnson jumps on Brexit, his party will ditch him and start the ball rolling towards another election With another government in place we can at least hope for some strategy around the virus and not constant finger-crossing , deaths and economic harm Of course we may not get an election in which case we will just keep limping on for a lot longer

He is exactly the kind of academic who would have gotten behind teh rise of poulism in German back in the 30s, using all of teh same tired argumenst. "can't trust politicians so go for this guy!" Instead of viewing populism as a problem, he's a supporter of it regardless of outcome Here is news - all of the reasons he gives in that article (and he has written many - oh so many along the same lines) are felt my most people - including liberals!. the difference is most non-racist people don't look at the likes of Trump and think "well clearly he is the person to sort out such problems" They see a racist snake-oil peddler - because that's what he is And the people who refuse to see that? Well you can call them many things - but being on the right side of history isn't one of them

I would say you think that because your views are... well, we all know Populism isn?t rampant everywhere. And ?populism? is often code anyway

One would be pushed to describe Matthew Goodwin as an expert in anything

very much so JohnL

Glen. You dumb gobshite I?m white. I?m privileged. And no one calls me racist So why do I think I still have an opinion and you think you don?t?????

Hospitals in north west on course for close to 1000 deaths a day again I?m sure TE44 can still prattle on about not hearing a cough - but government inaction and indecision is in part down to people like them pushing back https://www.hsj.co.uk/coronavirus/regions-hospitals-set-for-850-covid-deaths-by-mid-november-says-leaked-modelling/7028613.article

"is she Xenophobic? or just highlighting practicality/reality of a society that has changed over the course of her life?..." depends on what her proposed solution to the communication problem is doesn't it?