Sephiroth

""You're wrong becuase I can quote people who also disagree with you"" That isn't my argument. You are wrong be cause Brexit is flawed and excecuted by some very flawed people for very bad reasons. Objectively I'm just referencing earlier points where when people try to point out how others see the folly of the English decision, it was dismissed as remoaner elites and an article in the NYT trust me - majority of everyone outside UK can see the folly Citing an article about support for eurosceptic parties doesn't address anything. For a start, eurosceptic parties are generally toxic populists which happen to use the EU as a scapegoat (I mean, would YOU want to align yourself with most of them, eu policy aside?) - but the reality is that opinion poll after opinion poll shows support for EU across EU countries remaining strong https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/brexit-eu-survey-italy-ireland-portugal-eurosceptic-poll-a8888126.html The Telegraph article - again, Norway have their own ongoing relationshi with the EU to address - they have long warned UK not to think the NOrway option was a good one. But the articlealo states "The Brexit deal negotiated by Lord Frost avoids tariffs on goods" Which is only true as long as UK aligns with EU - and that won't be long will it?

You?re correct. I?m just off to find that list of articles from countries praising Brexit. Back soon

Boris Johnson and UK not seen as joke by anyone but elitist remainers is it? "Britain 'taken over by gamblers, liars, clowns and their cheerleaders'" https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/31/the-view-from-europe-uk-taken-over-by-gamblers-liars-clowns-and-their-cheerleaders

Now, why would he do this, at this point in time https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/31/stanley-johnson-confirms-application-for-french-passport-on-eve-of-brexit

? How many times have we heard people say "It doesn't matter who You vote for. They are all the same " I?d be interested to learn when this quote originated

Can?t even call made up nonsense made up nonsense anymore

? I learned early on not to trust what British governments claimed they achieved in negotiations with the EU; from the game set and match of John Major to Tony Blair?s so called exemption from the Charter of Fundamental Rights, they never stood up to examination. ? Snigger

?and now has to deal with the Brexit issue.? Poor Johnson. He couldn?t possibly have seen that one sneak up on him. Could you tug your forelock any harder?

close to 1000 Uk deaths today Many hospitals on red alert. Journalists trying to get footage to show the full extent of the problem, reportedly being prevented from doing so. Nightingale units being closed down (because they never had the staff) I'd say "aren't we lucky" doesn't quite grasp the problem

I would say that, given this wonderful, not-in-any-way-a-joke of a sovereign, world-beating government hasn't given itself any time to examine the deal, there are all sorts of problems ahead just now: "Starmer points out that UK businesses only get tariff free access if they abide by rule of origin requirements and the UK sticks to the level playing field. Johnson says: "Rubbish."" Starmer is of course correct pointing this out, so Johnson is either lying (to the country? to himself?) or he and everyone passing the bill doesn't understand it

"I believe it does provide flexibility to do some of the things that the ERG wants," I'd be interested to know what you and others think these might be?

In other words ?a joke?

like Farage they won't go away - it will be constant ball aching for years to come. Because it's what they do Rather than define anything like an agenda for what they actually genuinely want to the country to be like and do (I mean they occasionally try but it's madness and they get dismissed) they prefer instead to let more mainstream political thought do it's thing and then bleat about it It's why we are here. Cameron went to Brussels just a few years ago and despite endless UK exclusions and exceptions it became a constant cry of "not enough!!". When the only grown up reaction should be "yeah we isn't get what we wanted this time, fair enough" 350 million a week for the NHS - do you honestly think any one of these shites would for one second allow such a thing to happen? It's all "we are prevented from our nirvana by the EU!". They hide behind genuine grievance and prey on those affected.

They have - but to what end? They can't actually be happy with this deal I think the are positioning themselves for more of the same - complaining and bitching about EU from the side, pushing to break any agreement, causing more strife and tension

"But to say Boris is a joke is a bit laughable really. He got a withdrawal agreement that most at the time said he wasn't going to get, he got a trade agreement that most people either said he wasn't aiming for (some tedious lefty 'it's destructive capitalism funded by his hedge fund mates' blah blah bollox) or was impossible*. He's been a conservative mayor of labour London twice, he won an 80 seat majority a year ago. " At time of writing the country is in a weird "are we ok?" phase as the deal was struck at the last minute, Christmas is happening and everyone is a bit tuned out. But as details emerge it increasingly looks like he got the deal by caving in on pretty much anything that mattered and that the upcoming years will be the same pattern of the UK asking for more access with a background shrieking from the same leaver voices about betrayal - all from a position of much less power and influence. It's not good But to take the points made in the post above "He got a withdrawal agreement that most at the time said he wasn't going to get" He did this by either lying or not knowing what it mean and as we subsequently saw when people found out what it meant, threatened to break international law. Dumb negotiating position or not, it has cost UK credibility. It also committed UK to a border down the Irish Sea, something 2 prime ministers said no British Prime Minister could ever agree to. So is that clever or a joke? I'm saying it's not clever "he got a trade agreement that most people either said he wasn't aiming for" - It matches almost not of the Leave promises and leaves the UK worse off in all imaginable ways. Can the country use this "freedom" to pivot to some nimble powerhouse whilst also fulfilling promises made to it' new northern voters and keep the shires happy? Even with a competent govt, no. But this lot? Not even on the radar "He's been a conservative mayor of labour London twice" - good luck if he ever tries that again " he won an 80 seat majority a year ago. " As mentioned many times - against Corbyn. And that's on Labour. Bet Johnson couldn't believe his luck. But it's still a majority based on lies "getting brexit done" - because people have a mental image of what that means and few of them seem to realises it's the same as before but with less influence and power And that 80 seat majority keeps getting repeated - but it only needs 40 rebels and as the reality of the deal as the future years stack up, and with headbangers like the ERG around it's easy to imagine all sorts of problems. When covid clears and by-elections start to happen again it will be interesting to see the trends Every win he has is based on lies - as mayor you can get sway with that but you can't pretend forever to a whole country that everything is rosy And this is before we even get into his attitude about covid for months at the beginning, not attending meetings, boasting Uk wouldn't be cowed by it, awarding PPE contracts to mates etc He is a joke - and the fact that so many voters feel otherwise makes fools of them as well

Hark at Liam Neeson here. Some bets are too big - or has 12 years of austerity not been enough for you?

It was Johnson out and election before end of 2021 for me I?m not cancelling that bet (I did think Johnson ran risk of going before then. But he has kicked problems into next year because everyone is currently busy goshing themselves into tomorrow about what an amazing deal he has done. That will not last long)

You miss the point quids It is leavers who will never move on Just watch

Meanwhile what nonsense is Matty Elliot peddling today? Let?s put this in the time capsule and see how it ages ?My thoughts on Brexit deal: "We will not be under the gravitational pull of the EU, we will not be bound by EU rules, the ECJ will play no role in our legal affairs and we will have taken back control of our laws, borders, money, trade and fisheries" 👍🇬🇧 https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/12/26/boris-johnson-has-pulled-brexit-deal-many-thought-incapable/

I mean, move on people!!! https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1377057/brexit-news-deal-eu-european-court-of-justice-ecj-laws-uk-boris-johnson-horizon-spt

It?s not a trope. It?s a truism. To deny the racist bloc got leave over the line is just stubbornness But ?Moving on? is a meaningless phrase. Take remainers out of the equation and you still have 18m people left who won?t ?move on? over the coming decades because we will continue to need eu access and constant negotiation. Will those people be told to stop complaining and ?move on?. Unlikely

Voters were promised a Brexit that was undeliverable in 2016 What they have now is very different from what was promised That is not democracy A referendum can change legislation on deliverables. Shall we join the eu? Shall we legalise divorce or abortion. Even (and it?s coming soon enough) legalising death penalty All of those are democratic votes But leaving the eu on the promise of all wins ? That?s not democratic. That?s a fundamental flaw. You can vote to leave the eu but you have to define what a post eu future will look like.

"Spoke too soon!.. smiling smiley smiling smiley smiling smiley" indeed DR Still, according to him he only pops in for an argument only to find it's the same people from 13 years ago, and flounces off again Again, in his own words "I'm not a massive fan of Boris, but I've grown fonder of him purely on the basis of how much he gets up the noses of bien pensants types of the white metropolitan middle class. He must be doing something right." and then gets all how very dare you when you point this out and I still don't know why

we were talking about Johnson being a joke. Which he is I think you think he is too. And you could seek that common ground and talk about the problem the country faces because of his ineptitude Instead you go with "Boris is ?the Joke leader of the world?, I think you need to rephrase that?Boris is the joke leader of the Twitter world? , it?s just a narrative from those of a certain political persuasion reading retweeted articles from the New York Times " Maybe I'm wrong - maybe you think he is a good leader and not a joke. In which case you could point out the ways. But it was you who went with the tired MO and then clutch your pearls and accuse others (me)

so you think that's worse than you talking to KK with "this patronising, elitist crap makes me laugh. You should stop believing what you read in The Guardian mate." that's somehow not personalising it? because I have to be honest and say "still, years later, this is the narrow worldview you trot out at will" has the benefit of a) being more accurate - as KK has pointed out he is none of the things you accused him of b) is less personal and insulting