Sephiroth

a referendum is a referendum and stands separate from true democratic process - especially given the stakes of this referendum. And especially a country with relatively little experience of running them If that referendum was fought on The Cat's definition above (vague but reasonable) and won it would be democratic. But that was never the offer The offer was a whole stack of lies, and with no way of reversing it (despite Leavers like Mogg saying pre referendum that a confirmatory referendum would be likely) - and you can base your version of democracy on that if you want. But it doesn't make it so Every other country (including UK countries like Scotland and NI) can see this. But English arrogance prevails, dresses it up and calls it democracy. It's nothing of the sort The next years and decades will have the same unhappy cohort bitching about the EU and other factors and never owning their shit. And the rest of us pay the price

"You may disagree, and feel that this rationale is much too vague for you, and lacking in specific detail. But that is a personal preference, and this constant dismissal of people who voted leave as misled rascist fools is just lazy and myopic. Why not acknowledge a reasonably justified differing view, even if you don't agree?" But as ever it's not wether I, or BB, or KK or anyone else disagree with you that underpins this whole thing - it's the notion that there were many competing versions of Leave. And that competing is important - because lot's of people who voted leave will not be happy with your version But you did win. And we have left - you would think you would be happier. But you aren't. You sure don't seem happy. Touchy, defensive, uncertain about the future. This deal that was agreed (that no-one should trust for a second. fishermen are already kicking off about it and when more people realise the country is a rule taker they won't be happy either. Are they plebs for not realising this? I wouldn't call them that. But anyone insisting this is what they wanted and the other 18M agree with them,.... I am going to argue with them) - you think that deal would have won a referendum? It wouldn't. You don't have to care about that - but the majority that would vote against it do care No-one is calling them plebs just for voting leave in 2016 and they aren't all racists (as ever it is worth reminding ourselves that most racists did vote leave - that's not the same thing. But it is notable. No seriously - it is. right?) But the whole thing is a fraud. Bent as a two-bob note. Promises were made and you think all 18M people who voted are happy with what they got? What about the large number that changed their minds subsequently - are they plebs? Do they get a mechanism to register their disquiet?

Touchy Now, I?m no psychologist but..

Kinda hoping you coming back would bring more than the stale farts tbh

"I?m not elitist and don?t read the guardian. " Having met KK a few times, I'm pretty certain he is as far from a guardian reading, elitist as is possible. I would argue that in age and circumstance, KK and ???? are extremely similar I think the "racist" thing is overegging that particular pudding (not to dismiss it entirely - it's all too obviously a significant part) but the thrust of his argument is fairly spot on Despite all evidence of the last 4 years and beyond, the country still won't do anything but drive into the wall that is Brexit. Johnson can reel off a string of "victories" and lies and the country (England anyway) is effectively shrugging along. Concerns of Irish and Scottish voters count for naught. Saying you voted for Remain or Leave in 2016 matters little heading into 2021 - but if you feel comfortable about the last 5 years, you have a stronger stomach than me

"Questio,....is there ANYTHING that the remainers on here see as POTENTIALLY positive going forward?" What I like about this is the unspoken fear, if not panic as it dawns that the people he likes to debate with on here are all against him, but the people who agree with him are loons like TD

And once again, U.K. countries with large populations of voters with grievances (Scotland and Northern Ireland) were clear-sighted about why they are suffering, know it isn?t the eu and voted accordingly. Meanwhile the blockages golf club bores id the Home Counties continue to chuckle and bemoan the eu This was never about the ?left behinds? and their needs will not be addressed by this government

Let?s have a report from an EU country about the rollout(S). A country with relatively recent experience of actuall suffering caused by an invading force https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/europe-rolls-out-covid-19-vaccines-in-bid-to-leave-pandemic-behind-1.4445935?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter I?d say vaccine rollouts are going pretty well across the eu and the U.K. and there is no need for adolescent Willy waving on this subject. But you be you TD

"The negative verdicts you hand out are caustic, insulting and designed to stifle any view you disagree with" That describes teh entirety of your opening post in this thread and you generally. If you are going to dish it out....

Actually, given the cost, AND the fact that U.K. governments appear to favour policies which are self defeating anyway. After 10 years of austerity and to turn around in shock and go ?the STATE of this country. Who can we blame?? So being outside the eu is harmful. But combined with inept and deceitful governments, it?s bad news all the way I?m afraid

Given the cost? Not really, no

? Even if this is true, she would never get it through Parliament or the Lords.? You really think this BB? After last few years, I?d say anything is possible on this island

Never mind all this facts nonsense Trinny could have said all they needed to say in the main thread. But they had to go and start two more ego threads of their own, which even if they were factually sound, are just for spite and giggles That?s the lesson from this thread.

So Japanese car makers are going to open up factories in U.K. because now it?s more expensive to sell those cars to eu market? Ok, sure Freeport?s aren?t banned in eu. U.K. had them for a while in eu. They don?t provide much benefit tho Ireland does sweet tax deals doesnt it? And they are... remind me... in or out of the eu? ?Why give jobs to the Germans?? Deranged xenophobic rantings

Brexit IS project fear. Fear of a union of 28 countries and banging on about lack of sovereignty The worst immediate disruption has been avoided by a deal. But U.K. is still worse off in almost every way than it was

I mean, regardless of the deal, anyone who watched the Johnson presser saw the usual cavalcade of lies and bluster If we can't call that out then what's the point?

just making general points - nothing specifically about the deal

If I was a leaver, I would be worried about the deal specifically because Johnson has ensured it will get no scrutiny. And as history show us, his idea of getting something through without scrutiny but full of praise tends to backfire Interesting to see JPMorgan analysis today see it as problematic for the UK But this week is the high tide for leavers - they should enjoy it while they can. Pressure for more alignment will start to come relatively soon as the additional frictions mount and aggravate travellers and business. Any new-found "freedoms" are likely to be in name only "so far, in the popular print and broadcast press" - I'm going to guess you mean the garbage UK press, the ones that played such a part in getting us here? Of course they begged up May for a while too didn't they. And Johnson's oven ready deal before he threatened to break international law

whatever gets announced today, and however it's greeted, it would be wise to let it sink in and digest before getting too worked up either way

"Imagine being the EU intern who didn't refresh the spreadsheet data links yesterday...... " the unholy mortification of it

Put it this way. - that article makes a number of bold claims and the only people I can see picking up on it are the express going "ha!!!" But it doesn't seem to be landing in the wider community. If it turns out to be true then there will be a brouhaha. Suspect it's overcooked tho

"slightly"

"Also...point of order, Cat's don't have snouts..we prefer the term 'nose leather's..." Fair "Try and play the ball, not the man, Sephiroth. And I'm referring to AEP's article, not myself. " Nah - once someone is a proven snake oil salesman, it's fair to judge them. "Play the ball not the man" is an overplayed card. There are too many bad actors- they need calling out. Their arguments define them

Johnson is toast either way - reality and Brexit cannot mix. And anyone making promises on back of Brexit to UK voters will be jettisoned As I've said, to lose one PM over Brexit is unfortunate... But Cameron, May, Johnson and who's next?

rollout of the vaccine is something to watch - right now? who knows. But given AEP's track record I'll pass on the article* Back on topic - it's looking like deal announcement close with UK caving. Because what else could happen * that track record can be found here https://muckrack.com/ambrose-evans-pritchard/articles some highlights "We can beat Covid without lockdowns, says top German virologist" "Markets are counting on a vaccine rescue that is further away than they think" "America Inc will shake off COVID-19 effects quicker than we think" "https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/12/brexit-vote-is-about-the-supremacy-of-parliament-and-nothing-els/" there is a huuuuuge pile of horseshit with his name on it - so of course The Cat loves to stick it's snout in and snuffle around