Sephiroth

"in Europe (which is still locked-down as vaccinations lag)" I mean, this does give the impression that countries in Europe have more than the UK 1500-200k deaths a day, and that they are in lockdown and Uk isn't right? European countries are behind in raw 1st vaccination numbers that's true - but are they worse off/behind in overall health terms?

"but perhaps in 6 months when domestic demand is far exceeding consumption in Europe (which is still locked-down as vaccinations lag), we might be talking about different relative winners and receive losers." and it's ME that needs to seek help Right

For clarity - until you reckon with the genuine and dramatic problems caused by Brexit - you have no case to be called "reasonable" You try and equate the OP list of problems with "Well Nissan say this and We are ahead in jabs" as if they carry equal weight They do not When you start dealing with actuality then you can talk about you being "the voice of reason" Until then, maybe dial back the reference to other people's mental wellbeing, eh?

" At least racists like () have their twisted > reasons - but you.. actually.. believe.. in... > sunlit.. uplands " does not equal " 'the racists' are better than people trying to be reasonable'. " It means racists are honest with themselves Dressing yourself in the robes of "reasonableness" does not make you reasonable - it's entirely in your own head

Genuinely, as a prominent supporter of Brexit I would be interested in his actual take on what is happening at the border, at what his happening to business like seabag's These are big issues - and us worriers could do with some insight as to the bigger picture and what the upsides are which address these ACTUAL real-life issues (in the meantime I guess I will have to make do with comments about my mental health, Nissan's relative comfort with not having to commit to any new infrastructure thanks to a hefty bung, and a general hand-wavy approach to border chaos)

"Oh and we?re having to explore setting up an office in Europe to get around much of the toxic UK business atmosphere." to be fair that is now official uk govt advice. Take your tax revenue and jobs from the Uk and move them to the EU Perhaps that is sunlit uplands for UK but I can't see how

Seabag I'm reading this everywhere and feel for you. Clearly it's an unsustainable situation and UK will have to realign on some level with EU to avoid collapse. I wish either the govt or the opposition weren't so afraid of stating the bleeding obvious (you could always take Cat's advice and seek help? or maybe file it under "So delivery of your package has been delayed in Germany, pleae let me know when can we expect the Messerschmidtt to appear over the skies of London as was promised?")

It's not YOUR brexit arguments. You just happen to present yourself as some kind of "reasonable" face of an impossible project At least racists like ([redacted]) have their twisted reasons - but you.. actually.. believe.. in... sunlit.. uplands You think 10 years of pain is somehow worth it You have not posted a single thing about the problems at borders It's not me that needs help

I can't believe Cat has quoted stories about Nissan and securing jabs as his defence He just isn't a serious person. It's all just some kind of weird game I stopped replying for a week or so because when I read his comments about Jan 6 in Washington I thought "nah, I'm out" but here he is talking about a Japanese company, with an 80M bung, with cultural disinclination to rock the political boat, and with no commitment to actual future investment as a genuine counterpart to all of the serious issues going on with haulage at borders. As some kind of Brexit win. "we give 80M to a company and they say nice things about Brexit" It's... kind of sick

"I choose David Cameron's 2016 claims that Brexit could mean Europe is torn apart by another violent conflict." - go on then. Choose that. Post that link Because I wouldn't be so confident in claiming that it won't lead to problems - be it around NI border issues, or even "fishing" rights. For example https://www.thenational.scot/news/18939883.no-deal-brexit-uk-threatens-send-gunboats-protect-fishing-waters/ With brexiteers like Kawczynski urging their deployment I don't see sunlit uplands anywhere - but I do see lots of chaos

"I could also post a similar facile, cherry-picked set of links with positive commentary on the transition so far..." You really couldn't. Or you would you are massively massively underplaying the systemic destruction of the trade system with dramatic impact on jobs, livelihoods and infrastructure and all you have in reply is some facile "well actually" as per Reading the many reports of what is actually happening at borders and customs is way worse than "your package is delayed in Germany" "How have things changed for YOU" is just as bad as "well have YOU died from Covid" Very Bad Things are happening. And your belittling of them is just grim

All good links zerk But the killer is the food shortages in Northern Ireland, the annihilation of fishing and the massive problem that is haulage constipation/dissipation Government response? ?Teething problems? which is simply criminal Labour response? Hire 40k more border staff which is just jaw-droppingly dumb and kinder-garden in its understanding of what is required Country still is a joke and under a spell. Until it wakes up, this will get worse

It?s nuts that people are giving any credence to this nonsense conspiracy bullshit But people focusing on some bogus claim about photo doctoring and ignoring the actual lies v reality coming from his mouth are a big part of the problem IMO

It isn't hard to look at UK numbers and SOMEHOW imagine them being better tho, surely When you are this bad, in this much of a whole compared to other countries (per capita) you can't just wave it away as "fortune" can you? If a government can't handle something like this better (and many govts have done badly, just not quite this bad so far) then what is the point?? Other governments have done better than tis one and face massively hostile electorates. is that unfair? Maybe. But why does this one get a pass?

"Boris just doesn't answer though, can he continue that for 3 years." short answer is no. He will not last 3 more years. I don't think he will last until year end

"There will also be a couple of mess ups no doubt." there will definitely be major battles with the nutter press and wing of the Tory part that thinks this is all some hoax designed to take away our rights (all the same people who think Brexit is a good idea coincidentally enough) But hopefully the medical experts have the upper hand now after nearly a year of this

My optimistic side says that after nearly a year of over promising and under delivering, current government messaging is better aligned to managing expectations But if I think that is wrong and that their current messaging is actually on positive side I may lose all hope

Any country is facing a chance of being outnumbered and all manner of caveats apply But infections are going down or plateauing - death numbers lag. Vaccines are happening If any government can mess it up then I'm pretty sure this one can. But I think if they don't do anything stupid and manage us out of this lockdown sensibly then we will be relatively ok

I don't think we are facing anything like that KK - I think we have a brutal month or two ahead and then (external factors notwithstanding - new variants, cockups etc) we should have a spring/summer similar to last year and then a more benign winter - so maybe 150-200k total. Not good at all but lot better than half a million

I don't love Kier, I think there is a Kier "problem" - I think he would make a decent Pm and be far better than any current Tory But there IS a hole at the heart of his current persona where a "project" to ignite the country should be. But with regards to Covid he has been pretty consistent. We can all see the government has at every stage been too slow to act (even a year in!) and Starmer has been there at PMQs advising in advance what to do. Johnson quips pathetically about "Captain hindsight" but Starmer is there saying "no, this is what's going to happen in two weeks if you don't act now". So I can see a Starmer government acting significantly differently during this crisis - facing horrendous adds like every leader - but I'm willing to bet we wouldn't be around 100k deaths and nearly 2000 deaths a day. Let's say he shaved 30-50% off those numbers by locking down sooner on more than one occasion as per his advice - that's not nothing

Fuddled Forumite Scolded In fairness to Sue, I used to find the For Sale section frequently FFS'able too. I have bought and sold things on there, but as a place to comment on?? Not worth the drama

you spend way too long distorting what I say Me:"neither is an unreasonable position." taken in isolation one could agree." is not the same as you paraphrasing me: "i.e its NOT neutral to be able oargue a case either way??!!!" I went out of my way to expand and make the wider point but you just ignored it. So I'll say it again - once you tot up the real costs (not just financial) against realistic gains (again not just financial - just realistic) then it stops being a neutral case and you have to really stretch to say it's worth leaving one dysfunctional organisation to be stuck with a much more dysfunctional organisation

This is weird - no-one was ever arguing the EU was a perfect organisation. Me or anyone agreeing there is some dysfunction is not a "gotcha" "neither is an unreasonable position." taken in isolation one could agree. But we can't take them in isolation. We have to look at the costs, and define what the gains could realistically be. And it simply isn't a neutral observation to say you can argue THAT case either way

I'm not aware of any political body/force that doesn't have some degree of dysfunctionality? Happy to be corrected on that one

Looks like the German govt have been caught red-handed and I've read a few stories condemning them this since it broke last week But it has nothing to do with Brexit as far as I can see? And I don't THINK many of is on this island can vote in German elections.