Blah Blah

Indeed she did Alan. And that is not a statement based in fact, but an opinion,shaped by what exactly?

seenbeen Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > and other health care professionals who received > free training as midwives, nurses, physios, > nutritionists and then promptly flee into the > private sector. Utter tosh. All of those positions require a degree level of education which the STUDENT pays for through the student loan scheme. Even when bursaries existed, they in no way covered the costs of getting those degrees. Most of those degrees are also done at teaching hospitals. No detail of anything in that article either. The NHS is not the same thing as the Armed services either.

This is why I think Boris made a point of referencing the international diversity of the NHS staff that looked after him. On policy though, I could list many things but take just the nursing bursery for example. Taking that away doesn't help us to get more British nurses trained and into the NHS. So you can not have it both ways. Either you embrace the contribution made by migrant workers in the NHS (and don't bring in silly limits to the starting salary for future migrants, over what any sector actually needs), or you invest properly in training and education, to produce the numbers of young people that not only want to consider a career in the NHS, but (especially when it comes to doctors and nurses) have the talent and passion for science at school level. Also, the other aspect of under resourcing is that NHS personnel are often pushed to the limits of their productivity, often with consequences for their own health and mental wellbeing. These are all things that are worse under Tory governments than they are under Labour ones, as Tory governments tend to squeeze funding in real terms. And as much as everyone is suddenly aware of how hard NHS workers work, and appreciates the risks they are taking, I fear that when this is over, and in the light of the huge public debt that will have to be addressed, that any good will expressed now, will not translate into addressing the things I mention above.

This is precisely why other countries with equal levels of infection and death rates went further. If the breaking of the rules now are leading to an increase in infection rates, we will see that begin to come through in the figures in about two weeks time. Hard to keep people cooped up indoors in hot weather though, especially where people are living in small or crowded households. Government might need to rethink policy. Expecting under resourced police to monitor behaviour is not realistic. There just aren't enough of them.

Whilst she is highly qualified in the area of public health and epidemiology, it is still a government appointment, and there are going to be moments where she tows the government line on policy.

I am so pleased that worked out scotlass, and thank you for giving the little fellow a chance of life. This is the forum at its best. All angles covered and a happy outcome.

Unbeknownst to you Cat, there may be a front line worker living on your street, in your neighbourhood. It can not be underestimated how appreciated those workers feel hearing the nation come out every week to clap for them. It is a gesture of solidarity, lets them now they are not forgotten while mostly everyone else stays safe at home. Try to see it for the way it is meant to be seen maybe? :)

So pleased to hear that scotlass. They are a great rescue group and hopefully will get the little fellow back to the wild as soon as possible :)

And their advice for birds here; https://www.londonwildlifeprotection.org/found-an-animal/ We don't have a car but I am sure someone would help to get the bird to one of the drop off points.

Try these folks. https://www.londonwildlifeprotection.org/ They have an emergency number for injured birds 07909 795064

???? gromit. Of course there is a point in a vaccine.

The screeching noise is foxes mating. It is that time of year.

By the time Beijing caught wind of the cover up by local authorities in China, and sounded the alarm, the virus had already spread across borders. So stopping flights at that moment would not have prevented the spread of something so infectious with its various incubation periods. We focus on flights because that is the quickest way to travel anywhere, but land borders are also crossed easily, boats still sail and so on. All the processes followed from thereon are the established processes for pandemic management. Isolation of cases and contact tracking for example, but what changed that response into the subsequent social distancing and then lockdown (also established stages of pandemic response modelling) are the realisations around infectiousness and severity of symptoms. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and it is important to try and understand the pressure on science and governments when new viruses emerge. Epidemiologists train for a worst case scenario they hope never to have to put into action. It's a big call to make and what follows, depends on the success of the race to develop vaccines and treatments. On flights still coming here with no checks, I don't know why any government would not automatically quarantine travellers. But you could also ask why public transport was allowed to run as normal for as long as it did and so on. That is in between navigating all the silly conspiracy theories out there and those who just refuse to believe there is even a virus at all. There is a clear clash emerging between the ethics of saving lives and political interests around economic concerns. For me it is not a question of either/ or. Pandemics do happen. There will always be lives lost and there will always be economic impacts. The same is true of global wars. Those that come through best, are those best able to adapt to the new world that emerges.

That was a very good interview and worth watching on iplayer Artclub. What she actually said is that coronaviruses are good at not leaving a strong immunity memory (something already understood by virologists), but that you do not have to use the virus you are trying to combat to create a vaccine, and that there is a difference between immunity left by recovery from a virus and immunity given by a vaccine. Artclub's initial question is a very good one. Given that most vaccines are created by using the virus you are trying to combat to teach the body to create antibodies to fight that particular virus, how do you do that for a virus that doesn't teach the body to do that in those that catch the virus and recover? Sarah Gilbert answers that in her Marr interview. She explains that you can teach the body to produce the antibodies to fight certain antigenic processes, that may be used by a variety of viruses. Her vaccine is not using SARS Cov2 at all, but the Adenovirus which she hopes will produce a stronger immune response. She explains how COVID19 latches onto the bodies ACE2 receptors and how that ACE2 receptor is the key factor in the age and gender differentials we are seeing in symptoms and mortality, and that vaccines do not work as effectively in older people as they do younger people (but that can be addressed with booster vaccines as often as they are needed). She also touched on antigenic shift and drift a little too. That is the part that interests me because it is the indicator as to how difficult this virus might be to manage moving forward. She seems to say that minor antigenic drift observations are being seen already as opposed to the major antigenic shift we see with the seasonal flu virus. If it stays that way, then while we may never totally eradicate this virus, it may end up being entirely manageable once we have vaccines in play. Her interview is 17 mins in Artclub and I think it answers your question very succinctly while also explaining some of the main challenges in developing a vaccine that can be widely used. :)

Yes Edcam. The cleaning Plough Man refers to, works because the chemicals in use destroy the surface of the virus, thereby erasing the antigen ability to infect live cells. There is absolutely NO evidence of UV rays destroying SARS viruses. If you look at table 2 of this link you can see how much lower the coronavirus SnS is compared to other viruses. This is outside the range of UV light that destroys human skin cells. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1280232/ Where UV light destroys human cells, it is between 200 and 280 nanometres. There is already UV emitting equipment in hospitals like this, that is used to kill pathogens. While it is effective against a whole range of things from Ecoli to MRSA, no tests conducted so far show any effectiveness against coronaviruses. Even more worrying is results published today showing no evidence of immunity from having recovered from the COVID virus. It is becoming increasingly clear that we are not dealing with a pathogen that follows the rules of most other viruses here. Disinfectant and good hygiene practise may be our only effective prevention for some time to come.

Will be interested to see how this goes. We have a garden that we could put some plants to good use in :)

Yes, no evidence yet that warmer temperatures stop the virus. And that won't be known for some time yet. Respiratory viruses are not flu viruses, so making assumptions that they behave in the same way is premature. Some of the first places to show spread outside of China are warm climates.

We are all veggies in our household seenbeen, so think the whole wet market with open slaughter principle to be completely barbaric. That it also breaks every known parameter around bacterial and viral contamination is something every person, carnivore or veggie should be in agreement on. There are safe methods for meat production, and there are super healthy methods too through the free range option. There is NO excuse for anyone to be buying and eating dangerous meat. A lot of this is down to culture, way of life, over education and sanitation. But how many governments around the world are really reduced to feeding their nations with dangerous methods of food distribution? None is the answer. Much of the dangerous meat trade is illegal. So taking on the illegal meat trade is where the focus needs to be right now.

KidKruger Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Sue, rather than quarantine your jar of peanut > butter, why not wash it like a dish in the kitchen > sink. > We are washing all shopping properly, then rinsing > it and letting it dry on drainer (except fridge > stuff which goes straight in there. > We quarantine our post though, it stays on floor > for a few days - we ain't washing that !! Yes, just a good wash with soap and disinfectant will be enough. It has been in transit in its packaging for 2-3 days anyway. No need for an extended quarantine. Enjoy the taste of disappearing peanut butter ;)

We just donated. Captain Tom is an inspiration to us all.

The real story is way better. A dead tree stump was turned into an art piece that people can enjoy/ debate forever. Granted it won't be everyone's cup of tea, but anything is better than a dead tree stump that eventually gets removed for being just a dead tree stump. The only alternative was perhaps a new sapling in its place. Personally, I like the quirky totem pole ;)

I think we have to remember here, what is it like to be a teenager. You feel invincible at that age right? And death is something that happens to old people right? We live in a western culture where most people do not die before their time. This is very different to parts of the world where people frequently die from the impacts of poor hygiene, poor sanitation, and poor healthcare. In many ways, our first world sanitation is our downfall. We live in a bubble where the very idea of an unseen microscopic virus upending our way of life is an anathema. So that poses a question that is as much about culture as it is about science. How do we impress on that minority of teens and adults alike who think they are not part of the risk? The good news is that they are a minority. The bad news is that it only takes one infected person to cause havoc with this virus. I don't have the answers either sadly, but if we are to change those minority mindsets, we need to be clever about it. It is about winning the argument.

Interesting post Plough Man. It does have an air of cronyism about it. It would also explain why the WHO were relaying Chinese press statements early on that were subsequently found to be wrong, instead of seeking corroboration. The Chinese declaration that human to human transmission was not happening being a case in point. All of this needs to be fully investigated once this is all over. Edited to say this was in response to the previous post. On WHO funding, that might also be something that needs to be looked at too, but I would argue that for now, all the focus should be on dealing with the pandemic. It is not helpful to be taking any action against the WHO right now. Worth also suggesting that Trump's action is with half an eye on the election later this year. He is deflecting blame for his slow response and dismissal of the virus in February now that the death rate is shooting up. And there are still many states in the US not operating lock downs yet, with all of them having reported at least one death from the virus. So things are probably going to get much worse for the US.

You've given me an idea for a new thread Sue - Everyday items that have now become luxuries :D

The Chinese have been eating all the things they do for centuries. Cheap exports of manufactured goods have nothing to do with it.