Breast Milk STINKS...............apparently

[ClaireinSE22]

SF, I was attempting a little irony at your expense which is unforgiveable and evidently a waste of time. Serve me right for being smart-bottomed - from now on I'll be very clear. No, she isn't a victim and neither is the guy in the MIND shop - unless one happens to be in the throes of a major psychotic episode or under the influence of mind altering drugs, we are all responsible for our actions. When we deny someone their agency we diminish their human dignity.

Cool Bananas, I doubt very much that the lady in question was paid - it's hardly Max Clifford material. Furthermore, breastfeeding is actually far more prevalent amongst African and Asian populations - and I say, let those who are actually members of the 'other religons' you coyly refer to speak for themselves. My ex-husband is Muslim (Kurdish) and he was breastfed until he was 6 yrs old. I assume then that you are busy writing letters to WH Smiths etc etc who subject us all to a grisly celebrity flesh fest on a daily basis?

Kalamity Kel - I've always been a fatty, I hated undressing at the gym, I've never worn a bikini and I HATE shopping for clothes. The experience of becoming a mother, of growing and nurturing a wonderful new life has healed my relationship with my body. Why should I care that I can't wear skinny jeans when I can feed my son with liquid gold? You are wrong - I am proud to be a woman and I respect myself more now than at any time in my life.

[Keef]

I find it totally tedious when a perfectly valid discussion thread is littered with pointless, right-on posturing from contributors who have no real interest in the topic.

What a strange post.

Who has no real interest, and who's interest passes your judgement as "real"? I am very interested in this, perhaps not for the same reasons as other posters, but still interested nonetheless.

Not trying to argue for no reason here, I just find your post a bit weird.

Keef - Bleeding heart liberal, qualified visual impairment specialist, son of a market trader. (not that I have ANY idea what the feck that has to do with anything)

[Pecanpie]

Poor man. He has a (very) off day and ruins someones day, it happens! During my total of 2 1/2 years breastfeeding i never felt unwelcome anywhere, this is a battle largely won, and in this case, not one worth ruining a mans life over.

[Signora Focaccia]

'The Night of the Hunter' - good film

[hotchip]

I feel extremely sorry for MIND having to deal with all this cr*p, when they should be using their resources and time to do the work they should be doing.

I have two children under the age of 4, and breastfed both (and in public). But all these breastfeeding militantism / vigilante attitudes are just so ridiculously self-centered, self-important and a turn-off. Breastfeeding your child? Well done, big shiny gold star, you're doing something truly wonderful for the human race - but please get over yourselves, move on, it really is not the biggest deal in the world.

[daizie]

Here here hotchip .. makes you wonder how some of these women got preganant in the first place :-S

[gwod]

KalamityKel Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> Don't bother throwing you're dummies out in

> response it wont do yourselves any justice.

KKel, You're mistaken...you must throw your dummies out to avoid nipple confusion!

[Gimme]

So what is the decision then?

Is it more heinous to insult someone who is breast-feeding or to remove someone's livelihood, ruin their year and drain time and money from a charity? My vote is for the latter.

The reaction to this incident has been a total disgrace. Okay so the incident wasn't nice for the person involved and what he did wasn't right, but to brew the outrage to the point that the CEO of a charity is apologising on national TV (and the bloke himself is now probably jobless) is nothing short of totally disproportionate and unfair. Whoever got the Daily Mail and Vanessa involved has behaved, IMHO, much more destructively and caused greater damage than the guy in the shop.

Administrator - perhaps you should step in earlier when any of this dragging someone through the mud on the forum without any right to reply starts getting out of hand. Complaints about someones behaviour are okay but there has to be a line drawn at some point.

[mightyroar]

Hear Hear and well said ClaireinSE22

[Fuschia]

daizie Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Here here hotchip .. makes you wonder how some of

> these women got preganant in the first place :-S

I don't think there's any need at all for the personal attacks that have now surfaced on this thread or the wild conjecture.

In my mind the fault lies with MIND who clearly didn't have, or didn't publicise to their staff, a policy to support breastfeeding mothers (and privacy in the changing rooms)

The mother concerned, her baby, family and witnesses were disturbed at what happened

They were justified in speaking of their concerns both here and directly to MIND

The press have picked up on it (after which, noone has control about how it goes)

Is there any indication that the shop worker has been or will be subject to any sort of "punishment"? Where has this idea come from that he will be losing his job? Of course he won't.

To accuse other women (and some men) who are rightly upset at the original treatment of the bf woman, of some sort of vendetta against the man in question is ridiculous and not born out by the facts.

The rude comments are doing noone any good at all.

[sillywoman]

I'm very sad that what was a supportive thread for a woman who had an unacceptable experience in a local shop has descended into ill informed accusations and name calling. Mostly by people coming in late to a discussion and twisting words or phrases from well meaning posters to misrepresent them. There is no militant breastfeeding vigilantism here, there's no one out to 'remove someone's livelihood', or any of the other unpleasant and twisted interpretations some of you have chosen to put on the support that the community has offered to this woman. We can support her without wishing to destroy or otherwise harm him you you know. Some of you present yourselves as very nasty people indeed.

A bad thing happened in our community, it was reported & discussed on our community forum. Some complaints were made through the right channels and were followed up correctly by the charity concerned. That should've (and probably would've) been the end of it. But now the he-said, she-said arguments have become so twisted and tortured that the original incident has lost all clarity. And somehow those who wanted to express support for the woman in that original incident have been misrepresented & vilified as being part of some "breastfeeding militantism" - which just isn't true and cannot be justified by reading any of our posts in the context they were written. Yes, there was some early suggestion of 'non-aggressive direct action', but as Mind responded well to the complaint that was quickly dropped, and was anyway, initially rather a tongue in cheek suggestion. There was good humor in the early part of this thread.

It's certainly been a lesson to me as to how people don't read things correctly and are led to misinformation, accusation & counter accusation. But I'd like to say "enough now", a lot of damage has been done here, possibly more than the was done in the original incident itself. I'm bowing out now, still supporting a parents right to feed a baby anywhere without risk of being challenged, but not on this thread any more.

Thanks everyone for your input. It's been very heartening to know that despite the odd nutter, most of the people I live around are broadminded, warm & kind & fairminded people. That's why I love living in ED, & I suppose even the nutters just help to make it interesting?

[Signora Focaccia]

Silly woman -

'A bad thing happened in our community' Sorry?! What postcode was that?

I hope no young people living in Southwark who have lost their friends to knife-crime can see this.

Get a sense of proprtion, please.

[Fuschia]

Signora Focaccia Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Silly woman -

>

> 'A bad thing happened in our community' Sorry?!

> What postcode was that?

>

> I hope no young people living in Southwark who

> have lost their friends to knife-crime can see

> this.

>

> Get a sense of proprtion, please.

Well, on that basis (noone is justified in complaining about anything short of death or mortal injury) there would be precious few posts on this forum that would get over the bar!

[Gimme]

sillywoman Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> "there's no one out to 'remove someone's livelihood'"

No probably not, but the consequences of whipping up such a frenzy that the daily mail starts printing photos of the 'perpetrator' may be that he does lose his livelihood.

I'm sure that all people who jump in their car drunk don't intend to have an accident or injure someone but that is frequently the consequence. That lack of intention is never a defence. Likewise in this case, ignorance of (or reckless disregard for) the possible consequences of creating a frenzy and media circus such as this cannot be a defence.

I'm sure the guy realises that what he did was wrong and is probably very sorry he did what he did. But if the consequences go far beyond him showing his remorse, learning from it and apologising to the woman he insulted then it is a very sorry affair indeed.

[hotchip]

Fuschia Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> In my mind the fault lies with MIND who clearly

> didn't have, or didn't publicise to their staff, a

> policy to support breastfeeding mothers (and

> privacy in the changing rooms)

Why on earth should MIND have a policy? For goodness sake - this is a charity. Wouldn't you rather the charity spent it's time, effort and resources helping the people it's supposed to? It's exactly this 'me, me, me ... it's all about me' culture that's at fault here - not MIND.

Exactly as I pointed out earlier - sadly we live in a culture (yes - even in ED) where mothers think that no-one or nothing else matters in society except herself and her child. I have small children and I see this self-important behaviour day in day out either in shops, at the playground and a host of other places.

This is not name calling, or 'nastiness', it's a clear observation.

Enough said.

[Fuschia]

hotchip Wrote:>

> Why on earth should MIND have a policy? For

> goodness sake - this is a charity.

It needs to have a policy in order to not fall foul of the law. Even a charity is bound by legislation, inc employment legislation, fire safety etc, esp if running a shop

http://www.babiesnappies.co.uk/2008/07/20/breastfeeding-in-public-the-laws-made-clear/

"?Mothers have to be confident that they can breastfeed their infants in a caf?, restaurant or shop without the embarrassment of having the owner ask them to stop. This type of discrimination has in fact been unlawful for more than thirty years, and the mother - with a baby of any age - could challenge the owner under the Sex Discrimination Act.?"

I notice a lot of brand new identities on the forum created just to "have a pop" on this issue.

[Signora Focaccia]

Yes, and a lot of the 'identities' who were so keen to discuss this matter seem now to have disappeared.

[The Nappy Lady]

Signora Focaccia Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Yes, and a lot of the 'identities' who were so

> keen to discuss this matter seem now to have

> disappeared.

....or decided to stop posting in order to let MIND deal with the matter, following the post by FatherJack who started the thread, and others I believe.

[Huggers]

edited because it made me cross and its actually none of my business.

[Fuschia]

Huggers Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> this is the worst of east dulwich... self

> righteous,self-important, outraged...

oh irony...

[Family Room Moderator]

This thread appears to have become about the contributors to the thread rather than the topic under discussion, which was someone's experience at MIND, and the consequences.

Can I please ask that if posters want to continue the discussion that they discuss the topic and not one another. I for one think that all that needs saying has now been said, but if there's more please bring it on.

Fuschia and Huggers - apologies, this was not aimed at you, yours were just the most recent posts.

[localmama]

I told myself I would stop coming to this forum but want to say a couple things before I do:

1- In case this isn't really clear, I support the work Mind does and I've never asked for Steve to loose his job.

2- I did not contact the Daily Mail & had no intention of doing so. In fact, that's part of why I stopped posting here.. the reporter said he figured out my name, what I look like and the street my house is on because of postings in this forum, a photo sharing site I haven't used in 2 years & another forum that requires paid membership for the vast majority of its content. He used forum posts to write the story, there was no interview and there was no payment. The only information I gave them directly was that people within Mind had apologised.

3- I could have stopped them (at 8am on a Monday after rushing to get us all out of the house towards work & when I was taken totally by surprise) and I didn't. I regret that. I'm also not clear that it would have stopped the story. I did email Mind the same day to let them know it was coming.

4- People on the internet (including this forum) have been making really nasty comments about my body, my relationship, my parenting skills, my respect for other people... and frankly that hurts.

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

LocalMama, do not take anything people say personally. You will always find people who just want to argue for arguments sake, and the ones that made nasty comments? well that just goes to show their mentality and honestly, you really do not want to lose sleep over people like that. Everyone I have spoken to who has half a brain are all in support of you.

In fact someone I know who is the regional manager for 27 years for MIND in Nottingham was absolutely shocked and fuming about the behaviour you experienced, not once did she act like the people on here saying "what if the man has mental issues, what if , what if, what if blah blah" and as I said she is the regional manager for MIND!! she was so angry that she said she was going to talk to the main people at MIND. The manager peeked in on YOU! If he had thought you were doing drugs or were in there for so long, all he had to do was shout through the curtain " Will you be much longer otherwise I will need to open the curtain" instead he invaded YOUR privacy and looked at you. That is creepy, and that is wrong, if it was anyone else, we would be sacked for spying on someone, so I don't think just because someone MIGHT have mental issues that is excuses their behaviour, that in turn will mean anything people with issues do wrong can be overlooked, I don't think so, right is right, wrong is wrong, You were trying on clothes, you breastfed your child whilst you were at it because she was hungry, there is nothing wrong or against the law with that. Anyone who says " get her a bottle or sippy cup" well, it goes to show how LITTLE they know because not all babies take bottles, sippy cups and the whole point of breast feeding is that no bottles or sippy cups are needed. People who say your baby is too old for breast feeding needs to read WHO who recommends breastfeeding until the age of 2 years old. People who bang on about disrespecting other cultures by 'exposing' our boobs needs to go to other countries and realise women are not made to feel awful for breastfeeding as most women breastfeed as it is natural, it is only in the UK we make such a big fuss about it, hence it hitting the papers.

Other people have had issues with the man who causes you distress too, so it was only really going to be a matter of time before someone complained about his behaviour anyway.

Furthermore you were subjected to an embarrassing act of him declaring your milk stinks in front of other people and then proceeding to spray you with air freshener. This is absolutely utterly inexcusable and wrong. If he has mental issues ( and we could be here until the cows come home with all the 'ifs') then he is obviously NOT suited to working in a public focused environment anyway.

You are in NO way to blame. If that was the case there would no apology from MIND if they found the man's behaviour defendable.

As for it making the papers, really who cares if it made the papers?!! I don't care, it would not stop me supporting any charity, it just makes me more aware that the public in general needs a lot of educating about some things.

And I LOVE how people think because we breast feed we think we are holier than thou and think the world revolve around us because we have kicked up a stink about it..to the people who think this....honestly, get over yourself because trust me, breast feeding is bloody difficult, it is hard work, we are told breast is best, but yet we are judged and discriminated when we do try and breast feed in public, we are looked at and judged. As I said, I won't breast feed in public for various reasons but one of the main ones is because of the attitude from the general public.

Do not apologise or feel bad for anything, you did nothing wrong. HE did and the rest of the people defending him, well, they are just as bad as him.

If I had done that to someone I would expect to lose my job, so why should he be no different? especially considering he does not have a great track record anyway with regards to his behaviour.

Anyone with common sense would not stop giving to charity because of ONE man, but they would expect that man to be removed from dealing with the public as they would not want to be subjected to his behaviour which in turn would stop them coming into the shop anyway. Before this all kicked off I had friends who donated to MIND and said they never went back again because they found some of the staff weird. ( I didn't ask which staff member).

I hope the ones who made Localmama feel bad are proud of yourself.

[lorraineliyanage]

Well said, Heidi. Localmama, you have the support of many people on here.

[Fuschia]

Localmama, I'm sorry you have been both doorstepped by the press and then accused of selling your story and on some sort of vendetta. xx