When and why did ED become so poncey?

[Jeremy]

Reminds me a bit of the "d**ks f**k p***ys" speech in Team America...

[Keef]

That film is gold!

51 posts in this thread since it started at 2 this afternoon.... Wh?

Someone asks a question... Everyone says it's not worth answering, but then feel they have to answer anyway, because they have the itch, and MUST scratch!

[*Bob*]

Of course.. but that's because when someone says "when did ED become so poncey", what they actually mean is "ED is full of ponces and if you live here then there's a good chance that this means you!"

[*Bob*]

Not you, Keef. You live in Sydenham, I believe - so therefore you're not a ponce.

But in a few years, when Sydenham goes the same way as ED, you'll be a ponce as well.

That's just how it is.

[jim_the_chin]

*Bob* Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Let's not beat around the bush. A cock is a cock.

> And there are cocks in every demographic of

> society.

>

> Middle class cocks are stand-offish, drive

> look-at-me cars, have nothing to talk about except

> their work and possessions and and are snobby and

> smug.

>

> Working class cocks take delight in being

> aggressive and threatening, don't care about the

> area they live in, act unsociably and selfishly

> within a shared environment and start fights

> because someone looked at them in a funny way.

>

> There are more middle class cocks in ED now, and

> less working class cocks. But the cock percentage

> is roughly the same.

i vote this the most sensible post on this topic so far.

to add, ED has changed in that it now represents the whole range of classes / incomes - it's not been over-run by other classes, the upper ends have just started moving in.

it will, i believe, always contain a mix of c/i. one problem is that LL won't necessarily reflect this and lower c/i groups won't find that their needs are met (cf: any discussion on replacing iceland with m&S).

[macroban]

> one problem is that LL won't necessarily reflect this and lower c/i groups won't find that their needs are met (cf: any discussion on replacing iceland with m&S).

That must have been a wind-up post.

I can't believe it was serious when it was suggested that Iceland should go and the old and poor who used it should walk to Iceland in Peckham.

[alachlan]

Spot on bob.

But with the trustafarian point - seriously - do you really think they would only can 250 on a flat here? That's crap - there are so many people nowadays with that much and more to spend I think you are missing something. Most of what you are moaning about are people who have decent jobs and just want a nice place to live and likely bring up a family, and who can't afford a big place elsewhere that has decent transport to the city or wherever au cetrale they might work.

Its a great place and therefore people will flock in.

[macroban]

> seriously - do you really think they would only can 250 on a flat here? That's crap - there are so many people nowadays with that much and more to spend I think you are missing something.

And your evidence for this assertion?

[Michael Palaeologus]

It does stink of good old fashioned class warfare/jealousy.

These Mums with their ?500 pushchairs - where are they surposed to go? If people want to spend their money why shouldnt they?

This is ust tedious whining about harping back to a class versus class battle that was only ever recognised by pensioned off lefties who are about as relevant today as Arthur Scargill and Watneys Red Barrel.

[*Bob*]

When will this idiotic 'trust fund kids' nonsense go away?

A one-bed flat in ED averages at ?235k

A one-bed flat in Tooting averages at ?240k

That's right.. grubby old Tooting, tucked away near the bottom of the Northern line still costs more to buy a flat in than ED. It's probably all the trust fund kids - buying up all the flats and pushing the prices up.

How about Colliers Wood, even further out? ?245k average. Packed with trust fund kids, no doubt.

ED is still undervalued compared to comparative areas of London.

[SeanMacGabhann]

finally caught up with this thread again this morning - the *Bob* cock post must be a hall-of-fame-contender surely? Class

[pk]

gotta agree that there's a lot of truth in Bob's post - a cock is indeed a cock regardless of class

[*Bob*]

At least the MC cocks are not in the habit of bottling you if you accidentally catch their eye en route home from the pub.

Mrs *Bob* and I had a comedy encounter in a baby-shop last week. A woman came in with her toddler. She told the assistant she was looking for a very cheap pushchair. On noticing we were in the shop, she said, loudly:

"Yeah, it's just to take on holiday. We've got a Bugaboo, but wouldn't want to risk it - I mean - the amount it cost us.. you know" (then to her toddler) "would we, darling? Cor.. the amount that cost us you'll be in that Bugaboo until you're 12!"

c.o.c.k

[Louisa]

I've only just noticed this thread! Talk about missing the boat god damn it, I was looking forward to posting on this topic and now everyones talking about male genitals. Oh well.

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

People like Krosfyah who claim to move to an area because they liked its "edginess" are always the first wave of gentrification and are often even more annoying than the evil middle-classes that follow in their wake. For edginess read; I want to pretend that I am living in 1970's New York but the reality is my neighbours are all student nurses and local govt workers, who cares though it sounds like they're getting the whole gritty, urban realism thingy.

[Louisa]

I would hardly describe East Dulwich as gritty urban reality, even 10/15 years ago! I think the gentrification thing isolates areas. I mean one observation I have made in recent years, (and it's an important one so i'm going to make regardless of what anyone thinks),is the marked ethnic divide that I believe has sprung up in the last 20 years in London in particular (with ED and Peckham being prime examples). From the very first wave of mass immigration to arrive from the Caribbean on these shores back in the late 1950's, areas like Brixton and Notting Hill took on large Black communities. But the areas themselves integrated over time (despite early difficulties) and became vibrant places to live. In Peckham 20 years ago, you had a white majority population with a large Black community and eveyrone lived reasonably happily, decent shopping area along Rye Lane, it all seemed to work perfectly well.

In ED, very similar situation, working class area with a mixed population where it all seemed to work (despite LL being so lifeless apparantly). From about the mid 1990's the Black population in Peckham has doubled, with white people moving out (census 2001), and the whole area has lost chain stores and taken on an ethnic flavour. In ED, after years of blatant multiculturalism, the area has now gone the other way, with white people moving in on mass, and the number of black faces I see along LL has gone down dramatically. The few Black shops like the afro barbers and the Jerk Rock place have now all gone. LL has no ethnic food stores left! This is a problem as far as I am concerned because I believe whole areas of London are becoming segregated between wealthy white people and poor ethnic neighbourhoods.

It is a problem I dont believe has been widely discussed and I think it is the root of all the problems with gun crime and drugs in Peckham, and the middle class gentrification of ED. It's almost as if the lovely folk in the Village felt they had to act fast and buy up half of ED to ensure it remains a white enclave in an ethnically diverse part of south London. It is a worry as far as I am concerned because I think ED is now very clearly a white majority (overwhelmingly compared to a decade or two ago) and equally Peckham is now very much a Black majority community.

[Louisa]

*minor correction - I believe there is a Green/Turkish deli next to the bookies and Cheners and also I think SMBS sells some ethnic produce. Grove Vale still has a few ethnic shops. But these are becoming less and less. (I believe all of these shops serve both communties and thats why they remain open and do not have a mostly black clientel)

[*Bob*]

I can take all of that on board, but.. gentrification isn't race-specific, is it?

Are you saying that (*speaking very generally*) black people don't want to live in ED, or just that they just can't afford it?

[SeanMacGabhann]

oh. my. word...

edit - that referred to the woman *bob* encountered severalposts back - in the time between me posting it a very interesting discussion has sprung up - which the comment didn't refer to (im confusing myself now)

[edbrummie]

Spot on DPF. To consciously move into an area because it is edgy surely is in itself a middle class attribute.

And all this crap spouted about the amount of kids in the area now. I think its great that the area at least is making a start at having a normal demographic make up (as the area did in the past) more interesting than being solely populated by transient 20-30 year olds

[Louisa]

Bob I believe that the Black people who own their owns homes in ED (especially of the older generation) have started to sell up and move back home to retire (I know of a few neighbours who have done this) and because the housing market is so strong, White middle class families have bought these properties and moved into the area. It's a shift which isnt race speicific, but I would suggest most of the people who have been able to afford to make ED their home in recent years are white and middle class. I think the whole 'white flight' argument is very controversial, as many people decide to move out of an area and retire elsewhere because they are getting old and want an easier life. The only problem has been that this shift from both Black and White amongst the older generation has created blatant ethnic divides in certain areas of London. Some Black people remain in ED and have probably always lived here, and many own their own homes. But the very oldest Black people are moving out and its creating a problem. Equally in Peckham as older White people move out, it seems that Black families are buying homes there. I dont know why this is, maybe it's to do with housing, maybe certain communities want to remain close to one another if they have a large family in that area. I do not know, but it is a problem for our community I think. I certainly think gentrification in ED has been race speicific, and it's more than likely as a result of younger people and families from the home counties wanting to live and work in London being priced out of Putney and Islington and the like.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Louisa - some interesting points there - I don't know if I would call it a problem but it's certainly less than ideal to have areas segregated, even if it is voluntary.

There was a thread way back in the day (if only there was a proper search bar - oh wait, a new one has just appeared up there ..^) about why there didn't appear to more integration in community events - eg the Goose Green fair and why different communities (not a word I like myself) don't tend to mix.. No answers of course but it is interesting

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

edbrummie Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Spot on DPF. To consciously move into an area

> because it is edgy surely is in itself a middle

> class attribute.

>

> And all this crap spouted about the amount of kids

> in the area now. I think its great that the area

> at least is making a start at having a normal

> demographic make up (as the area did in the past)

> more interesting than being solely populated by

> transient 20-30 year olds

When we first moved to the area we lived on a street on which most of the residents had lived for over 30yrs, they were thrilled to see children moving back to the area as all their kids had moved on years ago and were never replaced.

[Louisa]

Sean I think it's an issue we have to discuss, shying away from it certainly wont help anyone. In the days of apartheid in South Africa and pre-1960's USA, these things were forced upon people. Now we all have a choice, and yet I still see whole ethnic communities choosing to remain seperate. I dont know if its an issue of class, maybe there are more white middle classes in London and so they become more noticeable on the streets. Perhaps black middle class people have moved to ED too, it's just they have not been noticed because there is so few of them.

your comment about community events is an interesting one. The Notting Hill carnival was once very race speicific and was attended almost exclusively by the black community. That is now not the case, and it is probably equal numbers now. But this is sadly the exception to the rule (probably because of its history and publicity). Other events are only attended by certain people. The Dulwich Festival is almost always a white majority event. I saw a gathering of parents and children on Goose Green yesterday afternoon taking photographs and having what appeared to be a picnic. Every single parent and child (at least 50 people) were white. It's a big problem that has to be sorted with further integration. We could be heading down a very sticky path otherwise.

[*Bob*]

Louisa.. it is an issue.

I would consider myself to be pretty groovy on the racial front, but upon examination of my group of (close) friends, I find myself to have just one of asian/white mix, and one black (and the majority of her friends are white so I suppose she's a bit of an exception in herself).

I didn't plan it that way.. that's just how it is.

The are underlying socio-economic reasons for the problems you describe of course, but there's just no denying that people, on the whole, tend to gravitate towards other people who are most like themselves.