2018 trains timetable consultation

[Jakido]

Southern are consulting on their 2018 timetable

Full document here:

http://www.southernrailway.com/download/42915.6/timetable-consultation/

[Goose]

Well that's a dry old read. I could have this very wrong but scanning down to pages 50-51 looks like proposal for trains through East Dulwich is:

6 trains per hour Mon-Fri peak times

(route SN3.9 *2/hr from Beckenham Junction; route SN3.10A *2/hr from Croydon but to Selhurst; route SN3.12 *2/hr from Sutton)

Mon-Sat daytime: 4 trains per hour:

(route SN3.9 *2/hr from Beckenham Junction; route SN3.10 *2/hr from Caterham)

Mon-Sat evenings: 6 trains per hour

(route SN3.9 *2/hr from Crystal Palace; route SN3.10 and SN3.10A *4/hr from West Croydon(2) and Caterham(2)

Sunday: 4 trains per hour

(route SN3.9 *2/hr from Crystal Palace; route SN3.10A *2/hr from East Croydon but to Selhurst)

If that is what happens probably about right (if they are reliable!!)

[Bic Basher]

For those who use Forest Hill or Honor Oak Park.

2tph to West Croydon (Formerly Caterham trains, so the loss of the direct service to East Croydon)

2tph to Victoria including Sunday for the first time.

4tph to London Bridge (as now)

Reduction of peak services to London Bridge in the morning peak from 6 to 5 per hour.

[bobbsy]

That's annoying to lose direct trains Forest Hill to East Cyodon

[bargee99]

Looks like they are cutting off easy access to Gatwick Airport for this part of South London. It was always an easy 15 minutes from Forest Hill to East Croydon and another 15 from there to Gatwick. They have even recently made it Oyster card all the way. It's not clear about the service from East Dulwich to East Croydon. It looks like there might be some outside of peak hours but I honestly can't decipher their notes and sub-notes. It may be the only way left to avoid going into Victoria and catching the Gatwick Express is overground from Denmark Hill to Clapham Junction and a train from there.

[Lowlander]

Page 50:

"Southern Metro Routes SN3.9, SN3.10/10A combine to provide four trains per hour (daily) between London Bridge and Tulse Hill. During Monday to Friday peaks, six trains per hour will be provided when Route SN3.12 is operating."

Page 51:

Route SN3.12:London Bridge to and from Sutton: 2tph (every 30 mins) during Mon-Fri peaks

London Bridge? Tulse Hill ? Mitcham Eastfields ? Sutton

Serving: London Bridge, South Bermondsey, Queens Road Peckham, Peckham Rye, East Dulwich, North Dulwich, Tulse Hill, Streatham, Tooting, Haydons Road, Wimbledon, Wimbledon Chase, South Merton, Morden South, St Helier, Sutton Common, West Sutton and Sutton. Trains will generally continue to Mitcham Eastfields and London Blackfriars as Route SN3.11

So yes, 6tph in peak hours and 4tph off-peak

[LondonMix]

How does the proposed ED timetable compare with the old time table before the emergency timetables were introduced (is that a tongue twister)?

[Earl Aelfheah]

I think it's the same. Despite rising numbers of passengers, we've not seen any increase in the service for more than a decade (they have gone up and down in that time, but never above the levels they were originally at). So this part of London got absolutely nothing from LB works and associated disruption.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Anyone know what's going to happen to Thameslink trains from Denmark Hill?

[Earl Aelfheah]

Just found the link to Thameslink consultation page. They have provided a good station by station comparison spreadsheet. Looks like Denmark Hill will get an extra train. All now terminating at Blackfriars (if I've read it correctly). http://www.thameslinkrailway.com/your-journey/timetable-consultation/

[BrandNewGuy]

rahrahrah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I think it's the same. Despite rising numbers of

> passengers, we've not seen any increase in the

> service for more than a decade (they have gone up

> and down in that time, but never above the levels

> they were originally at). So this part of London

> got absolutely nothing from LB works and

> associated disruption.

Has anyone expected more then six trains per hour at rush hour? No-one's moved here with the expectation of the trains being more frequent, so if it goes back to our previous maximum and is reliable, I'll be fine with that. The whole point of the LB redevelopment is to change the nature of certain journeys, especially through services, to improve the network as a whole. Being nicer to people in East Dulwich is, in all honesty, not in the same league when it comes to justifying the investment.

[Lowlander]

It's hard to see how to increase the capacity beyond 6tph.

Peckham Rye/Queens Road Peckham will handle 10tph on each of the tracks through platforms 1 and 2 in the peaks (6tph to/from London Bridge and 4tph London Overground) from 2018.

That's one train every 6 minutes.

Combine that with the aim of TfL to have 8tph on the Overground through Peckham Rye, that would mean 14tph or one about every 4 minutes.

Just a 3 minute delay would have a serious knock-one effect with limited capacity at London Bridge.

The proposals seem to reinstate what East Dulwich had 10 years ago with some improvements (earlier/later trains).

Offset by the loss of direct Croydon trains.

Note! This is not Southern or Thameslink being generous, this is effectively a government run consultation.

[Lazero]

They didn't exactly make it easy to make sense of this document... But from what I can see they are doubling the trains per hour from Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye through the Thameslink core. Routes TL8 and TL9 on page 21. They even have a note after TL9 to say that it is four trains per hour. At the moment it is usually 2 tph (one starts in Sevenoaks the other starts in Orpington, and they are annoyingly close together at times).

I believe all of them will run through the core (i.e. go north of Blackfriars) at peak times, during the day only 2 of them will run through the core. Not sure if all 4 will run north of Blackfriars at night (after peak hours).

It also looks like some Thameslink services will run through London Bridge, so some trains will go London Bridge - Blackfriars - City Thameslink - Farringdon etc. I don't think any of the 6 East Dulwich - London Bridge trains will do this, but hopefully you'll be able to hop straight onto one of these through trains. This would be great as it's an easy walk for me to East Dulwich, no more traipsing out to Peckham Rye. I'm sure I remember this being one of the travel route options in the distant past - it feels like London Bridge redevelopment has been going on my whole life!

[Lowlander]

All trains going through ED will terminate at London Bridge.

The logistics of having through trains to other destinations would require ?billions!

It is now much easier to change at London Bridge - down onto the concourse and back up again for Charing X; with Cannon St/Blackfriars etc. available again from 2018.

[Applespider]

bargee99 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Looks like they are cutting off easy access to

> Gatwick Airport for this part of South London. It

> was always an easy 15 minutes from Forest Hill to

> East Croydon and another 15 from there to Gatwick.

> They have even recently made it Oyster card all

> the way. It's not clear about the service from

> East Dulwich to East Croydon. It looks like there

> might be some outside of peak hours but I honestly

> can't decipher their notes and sub-notes. It may

> be the only way left to avoid going into Victoria

> and catching the Gatwick Express is overground

> from Denmark Hill to Clapham Junction and a train

> from there.

It is annoying to lose direct link to East Croydon though emergency timetables have meant it hasn't been running the last few times I have wanted it. Presumably though it would still be quicker to get the West Croydon train and switch at Norwood Junction for East Croydon and Gatwick. Outside rush hour, even the 197 to East Croydon might be just as quick as the schlep to Clapham especially with luggage in tow

[Passiflora]

Very strange to read a document predicted for 2018 when it's 2016!

Obviously the consultation people know a lot more than us mere mortals!

[Jim1234]

There's no indication of timings are there? For me the trains per hour doesn't mean much if they're not evenly spaced.

[louisemurray]

I agree with Bobbsy and Bargee, no local trains through to East Croydon make getting to gatwick MUCH harder , we've already lost ED to EC, now Forest Hill too!

Beyond Clapham Junction - shudders. Any other options avoiding LB?

[Lowlander]

Jim1234 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> There's no indication of timings are there? For me

> the trains per hour doesn't mean much if they're

> not evenly spaced.

The consultation document states that during the peak there will be three services running 2tph at 30 min intervals (6tph total).

Trains have at least 10 minute turnaround time at London Bridge, and there's probably only two platforms available at any one time for Dulwich services.

In addition you need at least 5 minutes between services arriving/departing to run a reliable service.

The only way to get 6tph is to have them every 10 minutes.

[JohnL]

Lowlander Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Jim1234 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > There's no indication of timings are there? For

> me

> > the trains per hour doesn't mean much if

> they're

> > not evenly spaced.

>

> The consultation document states that during the

> peak there will be three services running 2tph at

> 30 min intervals (6tph total).

>

> Trains have at least 10 minute turnaround time at

> London Bridge, and there's probably only two

> platforms available at any one time for Dulwich

> services.

>

> In addition you need at least 5 minutes between

> services arriving/departing to run a reliable

> service.

>

> The only way to get 6tph is to have them every 10

> minutes.

or to run late then cancel one of them :)

[bargee99]

Thanks Applespider, I'm not familiar with all the different connections to Gatwick so will look at the Norwood Junction route as an option. There appears to be a slow train from there every 1/2 hour at the moment. Fastest to change at East Croydon but as you say with luggage that's not great. The Clapham Junction route is not such a trial as you may think since it is only 14 minutes from Denmark Hill to Clapham Junction on the overground. If you are close to the station it makes more sense than any other route. Total time to Gatwick from there an hour within a few minutes either way. For early morning flights the 197 to East Croydon is great but after that I can't imagine getting there faster than the trains by whatever route you chose. It is just annoying to lose what was the simplest route of all and seems very shortsighted, unless you think it is deliberate, to cut off easy access to a major airport for large parts of South London.

[Bic Basher]

Norwood Junction isn't exactly access friendly for disabled passengers either if they have to walk up and down the stairs, which a wheelchair user won't be able to use.

While it also has Gatwick trains, those are the slow ones via Redhill, so in effect a three train change from Forest Hill.

I'd speculate Southern are diverting those trains to West Croydon in preparation for a potential TfL takeover in 2021.

[Penguin68]

As this is a consultation the the loss of trains to Gatwick from SE London is absolutely something that should be fed back as part of the consultation - and the more voices (ideally supported by our councillors and MP) to that effect the better. At a time when the use of public transport is more important, and when Gatwick might still be the preferred supplier of an additional London airport runway, there is no excuse to let this one slip by.

Edited to say - I believe the relevant question to respond to is Q60 here https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/2018timetableconsultation - it is well hidden.

[Bic Basher]

New Cross Gate is also losing their straight through trains to Gatwick, so that Thameslink trains can thunder past.

[Applespider]

Excellent point Penguin - It is well hidden.

On the Norwood Junction point (assuming they are not also losing trains), I haven't had to change platforms with my luggage on the way there - it's been cross platform. I know Clapham isn't that far from Denmark Hill but when you live closer to FH, then that's another 15-20 mins just to get there - suddenly one bus to EC with a heavy suitcase even if it takes slightly longer looks less painful.