Lets look at the popes visit as an opportunity to

[Keef]

Just for the record, I don't have particularly strong feelngs either way about this, but think edcam makes some good points. My only issue is with the Nazi thing that gets said quite a bit.

[louisiana]

mockney piers Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> word keef.

> I'm no lover of catholicism or religion in

> general, but that is just a cheap shot.

>

> There is something slightly worrying about

> anti-catholicism, which has an atavistcally

> deep-rooted nature in this country.

I think I have every right to criticise the organisation that tried to brainwash me as a child (in various countries).

In this country, there are many, many people who are the children of Catholic immigrants (and not just Ireland). And quite a few of us are critical of the organisation and/or its leaders. Why is this worrying? (There are even many Anglo-catholics critical of Rome.)

[Moos]

Louisiana, I think that mockers and Sean are talking about a dislike or distrust of Catholicism among the (largely non-Catholic) Establishment, and possibly even among the majority of people in the country whose roots/culture are based in Christianity, even if they themselves are not Christians. Remember the hoo-ha when it looked as though Tony Blair was going to be our first Catholic Prime Minister.

People seem to have incredibly long cultural memories. Is this the ongoing legacy of the interChristian religious conflicts of Tudor/Stuart times?

[RosieH]

Yes Moos, that's exactly what I was getting at - as ever you put it so much more eloquently than I ever could...

[huncamunca]

you think terms like Nazi are not applicable ?

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/-Vatican-official-urges-Christians-to-have-more-children-as-Europe-becomes-Islamized-102526539.html

Hmmmmm

[Moos]

The irony of a professional celibate tutting over an 'empty cradle problem'.

Apologies however, snorky, for my triviality: appreciate that this was not exactly the point you were making.

[huncamunca]

TBF though, as much as I detest the CC as a monolithic fascist all controlling monarchical entity that feeds relentlessly on the lives of its own poverty stricken faithful, this Pope really is an awful example of a human kind.

[DJKillaQueen]

I agree that the historical legacy of Catholicism is one that it finds hard to shake off and the same can be found for other religions in areas where they have dominated local culture historically. But this Pope has said things that are just hard for any decent person to have any respect for....and it's hard to know just how many Catholics then adopt the views he preaches (obviously not all of them).

[mockney piers]

Thanks moos, as ever the wise owl of the forum. I'm a bit lost as to exactly what Louisiana was responding to in my post.

I was indeed referring to the anti-catholicism that's woven into the fabric of this country.

We have this naive idea that stems from the glorious revolution that the civil war was about Roundhead Protestant good guys and cavalier catholic bad guys; total nonsense of course but good PR when a foreign prince was usurping thethronefrom the legitimate royal line.

I guess there's also a dose of the nationalist feeling that anyone who has alliegance to Rome of any ilk is somehow disloyal to this country, it persists in a gentle yet accepting unease among many, again witness the TB conversion (he was a wrong'un all along with his papist agenda type comments when it happened).

Everyone has a right to criticise rationally and I'm at a loss as to when I denied Louisiana that right. I was more referring to a pervasive air of knee jerk attacks, the Nazi slur, the Facebook groups and pointless protests.

It seems to me that we've managed to make most prejudices in this society unnacceptable, yet anti-Catholicism is still ok it would seem to me. It's far more subtle and much less destructive than racism and homophobia, as Sean says no catholic feels he'll be punched or spat at, but I've witnessed many a snort of derision or a rolling of the eyes to colleagues or friends of mine in the office or pub, a snide joke about the Da Vinci Code, and I can just smell it on this thread too.

[huncamunca]

Sorry Mockney, I never get personal here, but what you have posted is an irrelevance & more importantly a lazy diversion. No one is slagging Catholics en masse & no one has indictaed that the 1Bn+ Catholics are in any way actively supportive of what goes on in the hgher echelons of Catholisism Inc.

anyway, George Michael got 8 weeks in Gaol. Thats more important than the systemtatic subjucation & theologial - Political oppression of a 5th of the worlds population.

[huncamunca]

time for me to fuck off I think. have fun.

[mockney piers]

You cant have it both ways shnuncs. Either we're talking about the criticism of the conservative ecumenical poicies of the head of an intrinsically conservative institution (name me another has lasted 1700 odd years) and his possible complicity in trying to hide it's dirt under the carpet,or we're having a pop at all of them.

you claim it's the former and that I'm being irrelevant and then insult the intelligence of the the billion odd latter. In my experience most people take the catechisms with a pinch of salt. I've tried the whole 'your religion dictates this to you' approach in arguments, not least with missus mockney in my refusal to have our child baptised into it, but ultimately they all go "well that's not how i feel".

I don't know if youve noticed but the Irish are pretty good at using contraception these days.

You're worried about the subjugation of the billion odd people, look at the economic system that locks them into poverty and ignorance, forget the bloody pope.

All grandma eggs to you though snorks!

[Wilhelm]

Well done everyone. Hilarious.

[Brendan]

I'm confused that article didn't say anything about national socialism.

[huncamunca]

I am concerned with the Economic system and the way it affects people.Obviously, apparently I am snorky.

I will make no mention of the vatican investment in the arms trade & its lucrative returns in tabs n beer investments.Nor will I mention that that Vatican funds managers inc. are probabaly the biggest private mover in the US stock markets, $ wise, shitting on the biggest hedgies that make the press at the minute. Getting the brokerage for Vatican investments is the pot at the end of the rainbow for the industry royalty.

Anyway, its all a conspiracy based on some shenanigans that went on a few hundred years ago. Nothing to do with the systematic evasion of the jurisdition of national laws based on commonly accepted principles.

At least this hasnt been dumped to the the souless cavern of the Drawing room. yet.

[huncamunca]

Brendan Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm confused that article didn't say anything

> about national socialism.

think "Purity"

[mockney piers]

Blimey, was just trying to say the Nazi slur is a cheap jibe.

Sorry for the digression all, as you were.

Actually if im going to be frank and digress again, i think people in this country are distrusting of religion full stop. I know I get a bit shocked when i hear a rational person say 'i'm going to church'. Maybe that's all my earlier point boils down to.

Just like snorks 'apparently snorky' h'munca to suck me into a pointless debate ;)

Still miss you though since you 'retired' from the forum.

[Mr. Tea]

Give the man a chance to explain himself - he does it eloquently here in a very short film ...

[Jah Lush]

Ooops!

[Jah Lush]

Look out.

[mockney piers]

[Brendan]

Well if this is going to degenerate that sort of thing.

http://www.dailyfunnystuff.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/jesus-light-switch.jpg

[mockney piers]

Messrs Clarkson and Brendan with belly laughs, good work.

[louisiana]

mockney piers Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Blimey, was just trying to say the Nazi slur is a

> cheap jibe.

>

It's not my usual practice to raise the issue of the Nazis, but given it has been raised already, can I recommend the short version of John Cornwell's work on the relationship between the Vatican and Pope and Germany/German politicians and parties etc. during that period.

Cornwell is a writer, a Fellow of Jesus College, and a Catholic (though he left the church for a period), and has published a book or two on Catholic matters. He was given special access to private Vatican papers at one point, in preparation for writing the book that became Hitler's Pope (given that he was largely sympathetic), but I understand the Vatican pretty much turned on him when they saw the results.

This piece was published in Vanity Fair, based on material from the book.

http://emperors-clothes.com/analysis/hitlerspope.htm

It's long, but interesting and worth reading to the end.

I understand Cornwell may have modified his views on the then Pope's wiggle room since the book was published (but the facts he recounts stand).

> Sorry for the digression all, as you were.

>

> Actually if im going to be frank and digress

> again, i think people in this country are

> distrusting of religion full stop. I know I get a

> bit shocked when i hear a rational person say 'i'm

> going to church'. Maybe that's all my earlier

> point boils down to.

I think you're right.

The issue of the PM's conversion has been raised. Many loathed Tony dragging religion (of all colours) into education, not his adherence to particular faiths. And Cherie was always a C, but nobody much paid notice - the *important* issues were things like the PM and his wife consorting with a fraudster and suchlike... and her poor taste in clothes.

[Mick Mac]

The 3 pictures from Jah/Brendan/MP .... I'm sorry but I thought they were out of order. As a former Catholic, they made me feel a bit sick.

Awful to think of children being abused, but for some reason seeing these pictures, really impacted. Really bad, especially the MP one. Terrible.