Reliability of P13 bus?

[dully]

yawn

[aspidistra]

"Why limit yourself" is what you wrote, dully.

The post sounded vaguely insulting. If we could make out what you were trying to say, if might have been insulting. Toward another "counsellor"? Who knows!

If you're going to have a pop at people... etc. etc.

[Bic Basher]

There are times when the P13 warrants the 20 min gap between buses when I've had the whole bus to myself, then as mentioned they're so packed you can't get on.

Longer single deckers, such as the ones used on the 484 from today (now also operated by Abellio) could be a solution if they can't add an extra bus to the peak hour.

[James Barber]

The P13 was retendered and only started in Sept/Oct 2009. So quite a while before the next retendering which is the ideal time to fix problems. I'll dig out Southwark formal input during the two year retendering process run by Transport for London and post it later when I'm at home.

To have the P13 formally reviewed mid contract about its capacity would require evidence of overcrowding.

Southwark Council doesn't have the resources for this type of data collection.

Does anyone on this forum regularly catch this service who could note down the numbers of passengers at different points on their journey?

Any parents who could encourage an A level geographer to record this?With real evidence we can do something much as the users of the 343 (Evolution Quarter Residents Association) have.

[Renata Hamvas]

I have contacted Val Shawcross re the P13. When we met up on Friday I only raised peak hours, but now I've raised the issues you've mentioned above, Dully. Has the service got worse, or has it been poor for some time? Passenger counts, showing that buses are running over capacity are useful, and establishing if these are due to poor service, or if on days when the buses run to time, they are still overcrowded. It's also useful to know if it's at particular times of day and in one/both directions and if on a part of the route only served by the P13.

let me know!

Renata

[James Barber]

Hi Renata,

P13 lack of reliability has been a perenial problem for years - which is why its route was shortened at the northern end 2 years ago.

The timetable changes in 2004, during Ken Linvingstones watch, changing it from every 15 mins weekdays to every 20 mins clearly are coming home to roost.

More recently reliabilitiy issues is why the P13 timetable was changed with effect 6 February 2011 to improve Sunday services.

The P13 is a very long route 16km (10miles). Being a low frequency bus route - every 20 mins weekdays and 30 mins evenings and weekend - but with large sections along roads that can get very congested during rush hours such as the South Circular the reliability is an issue. In fact TfL undersatand the route to take between 41 and 72 minutes to complete which perfectly explains the problem.

How to fix P13 reliability?

Change the route to avoid roads that get congested - not easy with South circular being an integral part of the route.

Chop the route into two so the variability is reduced for different halves - but some users would then need to catch two buses to make the current journey.

Increase the frequency - reverse Ken Livingstone's changes and go back to the pre 2004 timetable with buses running every 15 minutes Mon-Fri.

[Renata Hamvas]

Hi James,

I doubt that Ken Livingstone had any personal involvement in the alteration to the P13 timetable! It was probably more due to an assessment at the time. His introduction of free bus travel for school children has seen increased bus usage, which is good as it discourages parents from driving, and hence car traffic at school run time. Something is going very wrong if the last bus of the evening is not running. Such a problem is surely down to the bus company operating the service. I would like users of this route, particularly to give me a run-down of times and preferably dates. Adding specific information to complaints does add weight.

regards,

Renata

[James Barber]

Hi Renata,

Specific examples of problems do add weight.

But the key problems reported repeatedly is over crowding and reliability. To have this routes contract changed mid contract will need lots of evidence - ideally a diary of journeys. The P13 route doesn't make bigger buses possible but returning to pre Ken P13 cuts would be of great benefit in resolving the problems returning to 15 mins frequency rather than 20 mins.

NB. I think it a bit disngenuous to suggest that any London Mayor who doesn't want to be told of any service cuts they are accountable for would be serving London well. Either he knew and wasn't bothered as the bus at that time went through safe Labour and Tory wards OR he hadn't told officials to tell him when they were cutting services OR he was told and thought them fine. None of these scenarios would reflect well on him from an East Dulwich, Peckham Rye or Dulwich Village perspective.

[*Bob*]

James - could Tony Blair - or David Cameron - also be to blame for the lack of a reliable P13 service.. ?

I expect so.

[tallgirl]

does this route overlap with the P12 much as that also has problems?

[Renata Hamvas]

The P12 took over the north section of the P13 in 2004. Previously the P12 ran from Honor Oak to Peckham only. The altered P13 timetable coincided with the shortening of the route, assessments would have been carried out at the time as to what the demands would be on a truncated P13 route. Demands on services change, and this was 7 years ago. Ken Livingstone was certainly a pro-bus Mayor, James! I agree, it will be difficult to get improvements to a service mid-cycle, but it's worth trying, particularly if there is evidence of more demand than supply or failure to provide the last bus of the evening timetable.

Renata

[James Barber]

Hi Renata,

So we're agreed. A cross party campaign to return the P13 to 15 mins frequency Mon-Fri?

[crano]

The one and only time I took the P13 I had to wait almost an hour for a bus from New Cross to Ivanhoe Road.

[Bic Basher]

Since the route was changed to run along Queens Road to New Cross Sainsburys instead of via Asylum Road, surely the best solution would be to remove the route between Peckham Bus Station and New Cross which is already served by the 36, 171, 177 and 436 already and keep it between Peckham and Streatham?

Not perfect as it still runs along the South Circular, but better than having a P13 stuck in traffic in New Cross.

[Undisputedtruth]

Well it seems Bic Basher hasn't thought this through about removing the route between Peckham Bus Garage and New Cross Gate. Travellers from New Cross and Peckham tend to use the route to go into Dulwich and Streatham. It also provides a link to the East London line at New Cross Gate for the residents of Dulwich.

[Renata Hamvas]

James,

agreed!

Renata

[HonaloochieB]

Does this constitute a coalition?

[aligs]

Agreed! I use it from this end and wouldn't want it to change.

[JessieW]

I catch it at 7:28 at Grove Tavern stop just after yours and it is always on time and never packed, if you wait for the next one at 7:49 it is absolutely rammed and it usually just drives by without stopping. Advice is to get the earlier bus!

[JessieW]

I can never ever get on it between the hours of 7:45 and 8:30 and it has to drive by 5 stops without picking people up usually!

[Bic Basher]

Yet there are four buses from Peckham which more than cover the stretch from Peckham to New Cross. The reliability of the P13 would be improved if the tiny stretch along Queens Road and New Cross Gate was scrapped saving the little buses getting stuck in traffic jams in SE14.

If ED residents need to get to New Cross, the 12, 37, 63, 197 and 363 provide a faster service into Peckham to change for the other services and is faster than going round the residential streets of Peckham and ED on the P13.

The benefits for local residents who use the bus for local journeys in SE15/22 would outweigh a minority of people who travel from end to end.

Undisputedtruth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Well it seems Bic Basher hasn't thought this

> through about removing the route between Peckham

> Bus Garage and New Cross Gate. Travellers from New

> Cross and Peckham tend to use the route to go into

> Dulwich and Streatham. It also provides a link to

> the East London line at New Cross Gate for the

> residents of Dulwich.

[Undisputedtruth]

There is no evidence to support the abolition of the P13 between New Cross to Queens Road would improve the reliability of the bus service.

There are a number of bus inspectors outside New Cross bus garage where the P13 currently passes by. These bus inspectors can monitor the frequency of the P13 service.

Bic Basher Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Yet there are four buses from Peckham which more

> than cover the stretch from Peckham to New Cross.

> The reliability of the P13 would be improved if

> the tiny stretch along Queens Road and New Cross

> Gate was scrapped saving the little buses getting

> stuck in traffic jams in SE14.

>

> If ED residents need to get to New Cross, the 12,

> 37, 63, 197 and 363 provide a faster service into

> Peckham to change for the other services and is

> faster than going round the residential streets of

> Peckham and ED on the P13.

>

> The benefits for local residents who use the bus

> for local journeys in SE15/22 would outweigh a

> minority of people who travel from end to end.

>

>

>

> Undisputedtruth Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Well it seems Bic Basher hasn't thought this

> > through about removing the route between

> Peckham

> > Bus Garage and New Cross Gate. Travellers from

> New

> > Cross and Peckham tend to use the route to go

> into

> > Dulwich and Streatham. It also provides a link

> to

> > the East London line at New Cross Gate for the

> > residents of Dulwich.

[Renata Hamvas]

Jessie W, in which direction do you take the P13? It would be good to have more details from users about the sections of the route they use and at which time.

thanks,

Renata

[dully]

I got the p13 bus from bel air the other day, tfl said 15.10 the timetable said 15.15 I got there at 15.05 the bus got there at 15.25. I hate this bus service. If Renata or James can do the seemingly impossible and sort of this bus so it at least so it does the little it says it will then that would be impressive.

[Mellors]

Its been diverted down my street today, so going right past my front window. They are so few and far between its not been a bother at all!