Dulwich Village Junction

[wulfhound]

The traffic light for cyclists coming from Turney Road turns green at the same time as the pedestrian light for crossing Turney Road. So pedestrians have to cross the cycle lane whilst the traffic light for cyclists is green. Hope this is a mistake with the facing of the lights and not intentional. It's an accident waiting to happen; pedestrians assuming it's safe to cross as their light is green and cyclists thinking the same thing and possible cycling at speed to catch the green light.

Noticed this too, really not good. Hopefully just a signal timing error.

I despair. I cannot understand why, with government cutbacks everywhere, we can't afford policemen or soldiers, NHS under pressure,and a host of others, there seems to be a bottomless pit of funds for daft road "improvements".

Think it's a case of trying to please everyone, and in doing so pleasing no-one (apart from their contractors, who will be laughing all the way to the bank, assuming it wasn't Carillion). They should have done nothing & spent the money on something else, or listened to the cycle and pedestrian advocacy groups and made real transformational (albeit more controversial) improvements.

Drove through this the first time at the weekend. Whilst its pretty clear that there is a change in priority when you are driving from Court lane towards the junction things aren't clear at all coming down Calton ave onto the junction.

Once the lights are on red, to avoid the box junction you wait on calton ave behind what was the previous give way sign, but then when the light change back, you should have right of way to go straight on to Townley Rd. Our experience was though that someone coming from Townley road and turning what is now right onto Court lane just carried on and had we not been expecting them to do that, they'd have driven straight into us. Think that some better signage alerting to changed priorities on the lights might be required!

Yes, this is a big problem on a bike as well - if you filter south along Calton Ave when the lights are red, when you get to the box junction then in theory you have priority to cross to the waiting area, but in practice, drivers heading on to Court Lane are unlikely to spot either an approaching cyclist (especially if they're on the far side of a line of queueing traffic) OR the give way line at the mouth of Court Lane.. and even less likely to spot both, bearing in mind you've got a split second to look in two or three directions at once after negotiating the first turn.

The way the extra sticky-out pavement on the left hand side of the bend is designed doesn't help either, it hints that the natural flow of the road (& therefore priority) is in to Court Lane.. the right turn doesn't look like a right turn, so it's not surprising people don't realise it is one.

If they're planning a temporary closure to Court Lane to repaint anyway, they should get on and do it now, before someone gets hurt.

[lulu1]

I'm also particularly concerned about pedestrians crossing Court Lane, especially the many school aged children who use this crossing. There used to be an island in the middle of the crossing. The island has disappeared. Now crossing from Dulwich Village towards Calton Avenue is really dangerous. When it's busy you can't see if there's traffic coming around the corner towards Court Lane until you've crossed the first part of the road. If there are cars coming around the corner, the pedestrians will have to wait in the middle of the road unless the drivers are kind enough to stop and let them cross. For drivers it will be difficult to spot children in the middle of the road as they also have to watch out for cyclists, cars and coaches coming from Calton Avenue towards the traffic lights. Maybe I'm not explaining it very clearly, but it has become very dangerous and looks like an accident waiting to happen.

[rendelharris]

I guess (and not saying this is right or wrong) the idea is that those wanting to go up Calton should cross over at the lights and walk up the left hand side and those wanting to go up Court Lane should continue up the road on the same pavement until they reach a safer crossing point?

[lulu1]

In theory that might be possible but in reality it doesn't work like that. Kids coming from Alleyn's for example would walk on the other side of the road as that's the natural way to follow. People going to Woodward Road or some of the other side roads of Court Lane would also cross at the Court Lane crossing in the village. Unfortunately there's no other 'safe' pedestrian crossing (zebra crossing, traffic lights) on either Court Lane or Calton AvenueThere's a lollypop lady assisting kids crossing Calton Avenue at the crossroads in the village but she can't be at Calton Avenue and Court Lane at the same time. Also, she starts quite late (I guess because Dulwich Infant School starts later).Many other schools start much earlier though. A zebra crossing would have been a good idea.

[rendelharris]

Yes, as I said not saying it's right, just speculating that was the designer's thinking (if there was such a thing).

[wulfhound]

I'm also particularly concerned about pedestrians crossing Court Lane, especially the many school aged children who use this crossing. There used to be an island in the middle of the crossing. The island has disappeared. Now crossing from Dulwich Village towards Calton Avenue is really dangerous.

Would it make sense for them to consider putting a Zebra across the mouth of Court Lane, give pedestrians clear priority there?

[Mazza6]

These works seem to be a complete waste of time, money and an accident waiting to happen. Is it safer for cyclists? But insane to think the works are at the detriment of motorist and pedestrians.

[Sqiggles]

The fact that there is a lollypop lady to help children crossing the end of Court lane (albeit she starts too late for the Alleyns/JAGS/JAPS kids) would indicate that this is an accepted crossing point.

I cannot believe the route for cyclists coming south along Dulwich Village. I sat in a car last night and watched a cyclist cycle up the inside to join the little cycle lane, before realising in was a dead end and there is no room (with the waiting cars) to get into the cycle box at the lights. He therefore had to weave through the cars to the outside to get into the box. It is a 4m long cycle lane that leads nowhere!

[Lucyalexandra]

It's totally unacceptable and I really hope this doesn't just get forgotten about - it needs to be improved and the justifications and cost explained. Apparently they'll be 'reviewing' it after the February resurfacing. In a time of austerity, in particular, it seems insane and very wrong. I occasionally cycle and don't have a clue how that tiny bit of lane is supposed to help anyone. I ended up walking my bike on the pavement. I drive through the junction daily and almost collided into a car the other day as it wasn't clear to me who has priority if you're turning into court lane from the village as people also try to exit Calton Avenue into the village. It was my mistake - I wasn't rushing but confused - but I very much doubt I wasn't the only one who was confused. There seems to be more build up turning right from the village into the junction too and another car almost butted into me impatiently trying to get into Turney Road. Seems more chaotic than before, not less. Very sad. We also had to live through the fumes and inconvenience, but it's the terrible waste of limited funds that makes me despair.

[rjsmall]

Lucyalexandra Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> There seems to be more build up

> turning right from the village into the junction

> too

I have noticed that the time allocated to the right turn filter light (i.e. turning right from Dulwich Village into Carlton Avenue) seems to be a lot shorter than it was previously. Only about three cars can get through on the green light but because of the long entry into the junction a couple more go through when the light has gone amber / red. This in turn risks collisions when the other lights go green.

I guess in theory cars shouldn't enter then junction if they don't have a clear exit but in this case the result would be that even fewer cars would get through resulting in congestion further back along Dulwich Village.

[DulwichSal]

This place is an accident waiting to happen. I have lived in the area for over 30 years, for many years on Turney Road, walked to school up Calton Avenue, learnt to drive in the area, negotiated traffic down Court Lane etc. This week I have witnessed 4 near accidents,everyone confused with the right of way.

[Robert Poste's Child]

rjsmall Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------ah

> Lucyalexandra Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > There seems to be more build up

> > turning right from the village into the

> junction

> > too

>

> I have noticed that the time allocated to the

> right turn filter light (i.e. turning right from

> Dulwich Village into Carlton Avenue) seems to be a

> lot shorter than it was previously. Only about

> three cars can get through on the green light but

> because of the long entry into the junction a

> couple more go through when the light has gone

> amber / red. This in turn risks collisions when

> the other lights go green.

>

> I guess in theory cars shouldn't enter then

> junction if they don't have a clear exit but in

> this case the result would be that even fewer cars

> would get through resulting in congestion further

> back along Dulwich Village.

You're right about cars continuing to turn right from DV into Calton Ave after the light has change to amber and then red, but as the Calton Ave / Turney Rd cycle lane goes next this means they're risking hitting cyclists rather than cars.

[Em Dulwich]

The road markings are confusing and the give way priorities are counter-intuitive, especially for cars and bikes heading up Court Lane. Before they put the temporary give way signs up at the bottom of Court Lane, there were some nasty near-misses.

I agree with Reg, a complete fiasco.

[rendelharris]

NorfolkNchance Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> DulwichSal Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > This place is an accident waiting to happen.

>

> Accidents don't just happen, they're normally

> caused by bad driving, you can't blame a road

> layout for accidents.....drive carefully and you

> wont crash, its quite simple really.

Good point - went through there several times at the weekend both on a bike and in a car; if drivers can't figure out that coming from Turney Road into Court Lane they're supposed to go to the left of the traffic lights they really shouldn't be allowed on the road. I think it's all pretty unnecessary and doesn't seem to have made things any better, but it's only dangerous if people don't concentrate.

What I do think is silly is having a large traffic light for cyclists; cyclists are used to having eye-level small lights, leave the big lights for motorists - when I was sitting in the car I was asking Mrs.H why she didn't go until she pointed out that the big light was for cyclists, in the rain I'd just assumed it was for cars and hadn't noticed the cycle shaped lights. I can see that causing confusion.

The most annoying thing about it is that as one leaves Court Lane to turn left up Village Way one hits a section of rutted potholed tarmac that's been there for years and could have been specially designed to unbalance cyclists just pushing off. This could have been sorted in a day for the cost of labour and a couple of bobs' worth of tarmac and that would have been of far more benefit to cyclists than all the rest of these works combined!

[alex_b]

NorfolkNchance Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Accidents don't just happen, they're normally

> caused by bad driving, you can't blame a road

> layout for accidents.....drive carefully and you

> wont crash, its quite simple really.

Good junction design does help reduce accidents (and vice versa bad junction design increases accidents). Clearly we should hope everyone drives carefully, but that will be scant comfort if you're hit by someone not spotting the changed priorities at this junction.

[sandyman]

Just had to negotiate the curious left-then-rightish-turn from Turney Road to Calton Avenue. do people actually get paid for coming up with road layouts like this?

[ce2011]

Anyone else noticed the filter light not working to turn right onto Court Lane? All that time and money spent and the filter light doesn't even work! Cars end up going through the red light (unless no oncoming traffic to turn right on non filter green) and then getting stuck in another red light....nonsense!

[Tessmo]

Southwark is asking for feedback on the new junction layout.

https://consultations.southwark.gov.uk/environment-leisure/quietway-7-dulwich-village-feedback/

[lulu1]

Thanks so much for posting this link. I think it's really important to give feedback as the new road layout is very dangerous and an accident waiting to happen.

[Lucyalexandra]

Just now there was a green man - the one that you tell young kids to look out for to tell them it is safe to cross -yet cars were turning from the village into the junction despite the red light and green man - so we just had to stand there and wait. The cars were heading into Calton ave and court lane - at least three: Must be due to bad phasing but they could not have missed us standing there with me nervously clinging to my three year old on a balance bike - he thinks a green man means it is safe to cross, as indeed it should. I have never seen anything like it. There's been an awful lot of impatient beeping lately too, which in itself is dangerous.

[Sally Eva]

I think turning traffic using the green man phase as part of their turning phase is standard. It certainly happens all the time at the traffic lights near us. The answer is to put the green man phase at a different point in the sequence when all the traffic has stopped ie before the desired turning phase.

Part of the problem does sound as if it is lack of enforcement of the box junction ie traffic is queueing through the yellow box rather than leaving it clear. Lots of other problems too.

Can I suggest that people post their problems/horror stories to the council monitoring survey which is linked above? Possibly the junction should be returned to road-work management until the re-surfacing is completed and it will then be possible to tell how much of the problem is confusion over road layout, inconsiderate driver behaviour or intrinsically poor design.

[tiddles]

I believe you are allowed in a yellow box if you are turning right.

Sounds like a real cock up in the phasing. Sorry to be harsh

but I think think the whole thing has been a real mess.

The swerve to go ?straight ahead? from calton/court lane/turney

Does seem exaggerated and not safe and if the bikes phasing is not correct

Then that is a disaster waiting to happen. Thank you for the link

Re feedback

[marigolds]

Like others here I despair at the cost of this work. Would love to know how much the consultation alone cost, as residents and businesses along the route were invited to a number of consultation events. I went to one on Turney Road at the old South Bank Uni site. A really unclear, lengthy,hot-tabling exercise where we were all invited to look at lovely models, move our expensively produced photo cards around and then comment on a number of complicated (and remarkably unclear) options. There were a lot of suggestions from people attending this event and I don't imagine any of them included the shambles that is there now!

Today I saw someone coming over from Carlton Ave, across the junction and enter Turney on the wrong side of the road. No signs, no island and fading lines. Fortunately, there wasn't another car waiting to be hit. So whilst people say people shouldn't be allowed to drive if they can't understand this layout, I don't think you can just blame drivers when it's this unclear. Many people passing through this junction won't have local knowledge. This junction is a hopeless, expensive folly, not even pleasing the cyclists who were meant to benefit from it.

Not familiar with how these decisions are made but I think there should be accountability for delivering something as awful as this. Galling to see this money squandered.

[lulu1]

The traffic light for cars turning right from the Village towards Calton Avenue does not work. There is simply no right turn phasing at all. The traffic light turns green for all traffic, cars queue up to turn right but can only actually turn right towards Calton Avenue when the traffic light is red and the traffic coming from the direction of north Dulwich has stopped. At this point the pedestrian light has turned green resulting in a very dangerous situation. Just this afternoon an elderly gentleman was crossing at the pedestrian crossing when the green man was showing. A car coming from the crossing could stop just in time. It's a terrible situation, especially with so many young children walking to and from school every day.

[mako]

I am still not sure what you are supposed to do when turning right from the village towards carlton av. Lights are green so you queue. you cant move as cars still coming from n dulwich. Then lights go red. If you wait at this point you are stopped in the road with traffic coming directly at you from carlton av. if you go you are going through a red light- and then have potentially another red light at start of carlton.