London Overground line extension timetable

[the-e-dealer]

Yes and we were in Namibia we would have to sit on a farmers Lorry.

[TB2]

New on the London TravelWatch website is this frequently asked questions regarding South London Line / East London Line extension.

http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/news/2012/11/passenger_watchdog_launches_webpages_which_deal_with_frequently_asked_questions_about_the_withdrawal

[James]

Sorry to add to the moans but does anyone know why our bit of the Overground will offer such an infrequent service compared to the Croydon/Crystal Palace bit? At times there are less than 4 trains an hour which should be the very minimum at any time I think!

[Bic Basher]

James Wrote:

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> Sorry to add to the moans but does anyone know why

> our bit of the Overground will offer such an

> infrequent service compared to the Croydon/Crystal

> Palace bit? At times there are less than 4 trains

> an hour which should be the very minimum at any

> time I think!

They operate 4 trains (2tph late evenings and Sunday mornings) per hour on all the branches. It simply means that between New Cross Gate and Sydenham they get 8tph (4tph late/Sun AM) instead of four as they overlap.

On what is known as the 'core' section between Surrey Quays and Dalston Junction, this is currently 12tph increasing to 16tph with the addition of the Clapham Junction branch services.

It's also worth noting that from late 2014, all of the East London line trains will be increased from 4 to 5 carriages to meet demand, which is already at full capacity on the West Croydon and Crystal Palace services.

[Girl82]

As an East Dulwich resident who works in Victoria, I am really upset at the loss of the South London Line. It feels wrong that in this day and age, places like Peckham are becoming worse connected to central London. Suggestions that we use the bus to get to work are ridiculous - it would take several changes and at least an hour and a half to get to work, and that's on a good day.

[LondonMix]

Then use the remaining Victoria line service. There are still direct trains to Victoria from Peckham...

[the-e-dealer]

You are Right to be upset. This has reduced the service to Victoria significantly.

[bil]

LondonMix Wrote:

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> Then use the remaining Victoria line service.

> There are still direct trains to Victoria from

> Peckham...

The problem is that the fewer trains that we have, the more congested the trains get. I was at Brixton last week when the lady was hurt on the train. The first train from Herne Hill had been cancelled, we waited 20 minutes for the next one but it was so full and we were all desperate not to have to wait another 15 minutes so everyone squeezed on. It was tense and appalling really. All it takes is for one of those trains to be cancelled to increase commuter tension. Considering the amount of money we pay to travel, I don't think it is unreasonable to expect a service that delivers a decent frequency of trains to take us to work.

[Bic Basher]

Girl82 Wrote:

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> As an East Dulwich resident who works in Victoria,

> I am really upset at the loss of the South London

> Line. It feels wrong that in this day and age,

> places like Peckham are becoming worse connected

> to central London. Suggestions that we use the bus

> to get to work are ridiculous - it would take

> several changes and at least an hour and a half to

> get to work, and that's on a good day.

Several changes to Victoria????

When was the last time half of you even used a bus in ED or Peckham?

[LondonMix]

Yes Bil, but some people who currently commute via Victoria won't need to use the direct trains into Victoria anymore because the ELL will allow them to get to their destinations using different connections (particularly the Jubilee line to Westminster and Bond Street). The services overall capacity in terms of passanger numbers is not being reduced that significantly as the SLL used short trains and the longer commuter trains will still serve the area, meaning the reduction in trains does not mirror a reduction in commuter capacity.

We don't know what the demand on direct line Victoria trains will be inlight of the new connections that are being opend. The SLL closing is necessary for the redevelopment of London Bridge / Thameslink. To compensate for losing connections into Victoria, the authorities did consider creating a new Victoria to Bellingham route but this was scrapped due to funding issues. If after the new transport arranagements in their totality, including the ELLX, are up and running, if there is a demonstrable needfor more service into Victoria then we will all have a very strong case for agitating for funding for the Victoria-Bellingham line solution.

We aren't at that stage yet. The totality of the new arrangements might mean that its not justified spending the money on the Victoria Bellingham loop. As tax payers IMHO, I believe we have a responsibility to test the new arrangements and think through the changes.

[Girl82]

Bic Basher Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Girl82 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > As an East Dulwich resident who works in

> Victoria,

> > I am really upset at the loss of the SouthU

> London

> > Line. It feels wrong that in this day and age,

> > places like Peckham are becoming worse

> connected

> > to central London. Suggestions that we use the

> bus

> > to get to work are ridiculous - it would take

> > several changes and at least an hour and a half

> to

> > get to work, and that's on a good day.

>

> Several changes to Victoria????

>

> When was the last time half of you even used a bus

> in ED or Peckham?

A few nights ago actually, when I regrettably took the 12 from Oxford Circus to Barry Road. It took about an hour and someone pulled a knife on the bus. A lovely experience!

If I was getting the bus to Victoria for work, I'd be catching it from Forest Hill Road, and boarding the 63/363 route. Last time I checked, neither of those buses stops at Victoria, hence having to make a change.

I'm sorry but I don't understand - are you actually trying to say the scrapping of the SLL is a good thing?

[LondonMix]

Yeah but if you are comparing apples with oranges. If you have to commute to a station already and are discussing the train vs the bus, then you need compare the journey from the two stations in terms of changes, timing etc for it be a reasonable comparison. Anyway, the bus of a rush hour is a poor substitute for the train in my opinion but is fine for off-peak journeys of an evening.

[Girl82]

LondonMix Wrote:

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> Anyway, the bus of a rush hour is a

> poor substitute for the train in my opinion but is

> fine for off-peak journeys of an evening.

Er...well that's what I (and others on this thread) are saying too!! And I get the bus for a 6 or 7 minute journey at the moment. Slightly different from taking it all the way to Victoria.

The fact is, it's much better for us Victoria commuters to get a direct train from Peckham rather than either taking the bus (frankly not an option if you have any kind of job where you're expected to get in on time) or having to make a change at Clapham Junction.

[anonymous_third_part]

I think the issue was that the timetable was pretty crap - I.e. the Following departure times from Victoria to Peckham

19.09

19.11

19.39

19.41

Pointless really!

The major issue is a lack of trains in the evening - there is a plan to get these quite soon though. Otherwise you have to go via clapham junction / blackfriars - which adds 20 minutes to the journey - quite grim really.

It is clearly a waste of platform space using prime platforms for the SLL instead of long distance services whilst LB is being redeveloped and Victoria is so congested though.

[LondonMix]

Exactly. For anyone who uses the train from Peckham, it was already basically a half an hour service. The service still exists during peak times so use it if its what genuinely suits you best but spend some time learning about the new connections. The reduction in Victoria line service is only a relatively small reduction in capacity as the South London Line had relatively small capacity. This is not that big of a deal. Some people will switch to the ELL as it will be faster for them than travelling via Victoria depending on their final destination. Therefore, its premature to say that there will be any adverse capacity issues.

Girl82, I was responding to the part of your post where you complain that you have to make a change to get to Victoria on the bus. If you compare apples with apples, that's not true as there are direct buses between Peckham and Victoria. Also, almost everyone on her has said to just use the Victoria line during rush hour as it will still be operating. The bus has been suggested as an alternative during the evenings when the Victoria line won't be running and when the buses are more reliable as there is less traffic.

I don't even know what you people are complaining about any more as you can't seem to keep your own arguments straight...

[antantant]

Please stop this ridiculous argument that busses are an alternative for trains. I often get the 436 / 36 between Queens Road Peckham and Peckham Rye in off peak times, which continues to Victoria. On Sunday I had to let SIX go past as I had a buggy and there was no space for me. If you actually have to be somewhere at a certain time, busses are unsuable.

[Lowlander]

antanant, why not get the train then between Queens Road Peckham and Peckham Rye?

I know several people who get the 185 into Victoria each morning and prefer it to the train - takes a little longer, but guaranteed a seat. It is an alternative, particularly for those who can't afford the train.

[edcam]

Lowlander Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> antanant, why not get the train then between

> Queens Road Peckham and Peckham Rye?

>

> I know several people who get the 185 into

> Victoria each morning and prefer it to the train -

> takes a little longer, but guaranteed a seat. It

> is an alternative, particularly for those who

> can't afford the train.

There is no way you are guaranteed a seat on the 185 in the morning!

[anonymous_third_part]

LondonMix Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Exactly. For anyone who uses the train from

> Peckham, it was already basically a half an hour

> service. The service still exists during peak

> times so use it if its what genuinely suits you

> best but spend some time learning about the new

> connections. The reduction in Victoria line

> service is only a relatively small reduction in

> capacity as the South London Line had relatively

> small capacity. This is not that big of a deal.

> Some people will switch to the ELL as it will be

> faster for them than travelling via Victoria

> depending on their final destination. Therefore,

> its premature to say that there will be any

> adverse capacity issues.

>

> Girl82, I was responding to the part of your post

> where you complain that you have to make a change

> to get to Victoria on the bus. If you compare

> apples with apples, that's not true as there are

> direct buses between Peckham and Victoria. Also,

> almost everyone on her has said to just use the

> Victoria line during rush hour as it will still be

> operating. The bus has been suggested as an

> alternative during the evenings when the Victoria

> line won't be running and when the buses are more

> reliable as there is less traffic.

>

> I don't even know what you people are complaining

> about any more as you can't seem to keep your own

> arguments straight...

Agreed. If you miss the train to Peckham from Victoria you now have 2 options - via blackfriars or via clap junc.

The issue is there are no direct trains in the evenings

[LondonMix]

Yes, and what evening alternative best suits you will depend on your circumstances. If you have a buggy that you can't or won't fold for whatever reason, then perhaps going via Blackfriars is a better evening alternative for you than the bus. Alternatively, getting a folding buggy for use when travelling on the bus could be an idea depending on your specific circumstances. Dismissing the bus for everyone as an evening subsitute Antantant based on you having a buggy is rediculous. I work late many evenings and outside of the rush hour I take the bus fairly regularly and its pretty reliable.

[antantant]

The point that I'm trying to make is that there are people that lose out of the post-December situation.

That is all.

[ianr]

There are some other possibilities for Victoria connections that may be worth bearing in mind, such as using Tulse Hill, Streatham Common or West Norwood.

Your optimal choice may well depend on your exact time of travel. But of the limited examples I've looked at so far, it is possible, at least at some times of day, to get from East Dulwich to Victoria in 29 minutes via Tulse Hill and Herne Hill, or in 35 minutes via Streatham Common. The connecting trains go through Peckham Rye as well, of course. The times I've looked at are from the National Rail Journey Planner for journeys on Tuesday 11 December, ie after the timetable change.

[Lowlander]

edcam Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Lowlander Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > antanant, why not get the train then between

> > Queens Road Peckham and Peckham Rye?

> >

> > I know several people who get the 185 into

> > Victoria each morning and prefer it to the train

> -

> > takes a little longer, but guaranteed a seat.

> It

> > is an alternative, particularly for those who

> > can't afford the train.

>

> There is no way you are guaranteed a seat on the

> 185 in the morning!

Every time I've caught it I get a seat. That's prior to 0730 though, and I wouldn't expect a seat on the train either after that time. You might have to wait a few stops and wait for everyone to get off at the station.

[edcam]

Lowlander Wrote:

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>> Every time I've caught it I get a seat. That's

> prior to 0730 though, and I wouldn't expect a seat

> on the train either after that time. You might

> have to wait a few stops and wait for everyone to

> get off at the station.

To be fair, you're in a pretty small minority leaving that early. An hour later and it's a totally different story.

[LondonMix]

Yes, there are some people who might be marginally better off with the status quo. The only point I and others are trying to make is that (1) the inconvenience is not that great and (2) the changes are complex and despite some claiming the changes are ?bad / ridiculous / daft / a disaster etc.? they are not for the following reasons:

? Rationale: The closing of the SLL (along with other lines? abilities to call at London Bridge) has to do with redevelopment of London Bridge for Thameslink which is a valuable, worthwhile project despite the logistical challenges it poses to the city over the next several years

? Frequency: The reduction in Victoria service is relatively minimal given that the existing timetable was essentially a 30 min frequency anyway

? Capacity: The introduction of the ELL will benefit certain users currently reliant on the Victoria line depending on their final destination. Users switching to the ELL will reduce demand on the Victoria line service. Given that the SLL was comprised of short trains, the reduction in capacity in the Victoria service is not that great. Even if only a minority of current Victoria users switch to the ELL, there may not be any capacity issues in light of the above.

? Evening and Sunday Service: For those that rely on the Victoria line of an evening and Sunday, many here have discussed at length the various alternatives which again mitigate the need to spend money on the creation of a new line. The loss of the evening service while regrettable does not amount to a disaster given other travel options to and from Victoria in the area.

? Alternatives: given all of the above, the alternative of building / funding the Victoria-Bellingham service to supplement our remaining services to Victoria seems premature and potentially a poor use of limited resources

? Lastly, overall capacity, interconnections etc in the area are increasing post December 9th which should be a net benefit to the community. Everyone should spend time trying to understand the new travel opportunities to make best use of the new connections available.

So now we have both made our points.

antantant Wrote:

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> The point that I'm trying to make is that there

> are people that lose out of the post-December

> situation.

>

> That is all.