Bakerloo Line extension petition through Camberwell and Peckham

[????]

...it,s lovely over there

[GEEKASAURUS]

I cycle so can be at work in 25mins. This is as irrelevant as your LB stat. The associated damage during building works is clearly something I wouldn't try to argue against, that would be impossible at this stage.

As someone relatively recent to the forum (lurker for 2 years) I've seen many threads deteriorate with unnecessary aggression, please don't let this happen here. I like it here, don't want to move but that doesn't equate to being against improvement. I am not a Luddite.

[LondonMix]

Its a tough one. The green spaces and vibrant community feel (which is in part due to the area being somewhat cut off) is what drew many residents here. I don't think people are against the tube per se but rather what those changes will mean for the area which will of course be both positive and negative.

[Anstergirl]

Check this out- wish this was true!

http://www.articlesandtexticles.co.uk/2007/10/29/colourcountry/

[Bic Basher]

LondonMix Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Its a tough one. The green spaces and vibrant

> community feel (which is in part due to the area

> being somewhat cut off) is what drew many

> residents here. I don't think people are against

> the tube per se but rather what those changes will

> mean for the area which will of course be both

> positive and negative.

Great point. If you look at the ELL extension, Dalston has become busier and dare say noisier since passengers could easily travel from south London. A Bakerloo extension even to Peckham Rye Common would bring more people down the road to LL.

On the other hand, if you look at the southern extension, there hasn't been any direct benefit to Forest Hill (with the exception of East London school parties to Horniman Museum) or Sydenham with those areas receiving Portas Pilot funding to attract businesses and customers to their retail outlets.

[jimmyay]

Is this actually true though?

My perception is that Crystal Palace has regenerated quite substantially in part due to the ELL extension - many former subdivided properties have been converted back into family homes and the process continues.

Agreed improvements seem patchy at best in Forest Hill, not sure why that is - perhaps as the town centre didn't have a lot of character to begin with.

[jn]

Here it what i posted onto the petition, useful i think to replicate here to stimulate discussion...

"This must be prioritised over Crossrail 2 - which is mirroring already existing transport corridors, partuiculary in the south-west... before the south-east can even comprehend a 'crossrail' we need existing tube lines first! Not only should this serve Peckham but should continue into Lewisham, Catford, Beckenham, Hayes, Kidbrook, Charlton & Eltham - 2 Branches after Lewisham if you were wondering..."

[HopOne]

Bic Basher Wrote:

> On the other hand, if you look at the southern

> extension, there hasn't been any direct benefit to

> Forest Hill (with the exception of East London

> school parties to Horniman Museum) or Sydenham

> with those areas receiving Portas Pilot funding to

> attract businesses and customers to their retail

> outlets.

Are you kidding? The ELL has massively improved transport connections in these areas. Way before the Portas Pilot, it helped many new businesses to start. For a bellweather check, just count the coffee shops, before and after.

[Medley]

It's obviously total nonsense to say there's been no uplift from the ELL southern extension.

It's also startling, from a south east London perspective, just how far down the pecking order we are - if we're on it at all, I sometimes wonder.

As above - Crossrail 2!! What about Tubeline/decent transport 1?

[Bic Basher]

HopOne Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Bic Basher Wrote:

>

> > On the other hand, if you look at the southern

> > extension, there hasn't been any direct benefit

> to

> > Forest Hill (with the exception of East London

> > school parties to Horniman Museum) or Sydenham

> > with those areas receiving Portas Pilot funding

> to

> > attract businesses and customers to their

> retail

> > outlets.

>

> Are you kidding? The ELL has massively improved

> transport connections in these areas. Way before

> the Portas Pilot, it helped many new businesses to

> start. For a bellweather check, just count the

> coffee shops, before and after.

Transport connections yes, but there have been empty shop after empty shop on Dartmouth Road AFTER the ELL opened. Portas has helped to bring at least one business, a Bermondsey based butcher on London Road which is set to open later this month amongst numerous pseudo ED style coffee shops, but FH continues to suffer from being a place where people go to get the improved trains from the other end of LL, but not many people spend their money in local independent businesses.

However, I see the Forest Hill Society continue to try and improve life in the area for residents, including a regular food fair in the station car park.

[HopOne]

I wouldn't dispute that more needs to be done, and that is why the Forest Hill society interventions and Portas Pilot is so welcome. However, I was responding to your point about the benefit of the ELL - it was not just transport. A tangible improvement in other areas too - it has reversed a decline in shops and new ones started to appear.

[amy30]

Thanks Renata,

I have also signed the petition. Like others I have been looking into this recently, I understand extending the bakerloo line is listed as a TFL long term strategy for review post 2020. It would be nice to see it made more of a priority, it is incredible that there are no zone 2 underground stations east of Brixton / Oval / Kennington. Now there is a tube extention going to Battersea! Hard to see why this should be a priority above Camberwell apart from the obvious - funding.I also note that the preferred route seems to be via New Cross/Lewisham, despite already having reasonably direct routes into the city via the east London line / DLR.

What else can we do to make the Camberwell/Peckham route happen?

Steve Waterman

[Bic Basher]

HopOne Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I wouldn't dispute that more needs to be done, and

> that is why the Forest Hill society interventions

> and Portas Pilot is so welcome. However, I was

> responding to your point about the benefit of the

> ELL - it was not just transport. A tangible

> improvement in other areas too - it has reversed a

> decline in shops and new ones started to appear.

In East London yes, look at how Dalston is now on the map as the new Shoreditch, but FH is still no ED (and nor should it be!). Where are the hoardes of Londoners travelling to visit the must visit shops of Forest Hill and Sydenham?

ED despite having poorer transport links in comparison to FH still had an eclectic mix of shops on LL and has character. FH and Sydenham have issues including both main shopping streets on traffic jam ridden streets which disconnect potential visitors.

There have been some positives in FH, namely the increased visitors to Horniman Museum and the new swimming pool, yet transport is only part of the regeneration process. You have to build character and must have shops and pubs, whether it's chain stores or independent stores which bring footfall. ED has achieved this without having a tube style rail service and not having major chains such as Boots and WHSmith which FH has.

The point still stands that some passengers who use Forest Hill station only visit because it's a commuter hub, by going straight from the station to the bus stop and head back over the hill to ED. Getting those potential customers away from the London Road T shaped area and into Dartmouth Road is the challenge for the new businesses who should move into the shops thanks to Portas.

[LondonMix]

Some might argue the lack of good transport is what has allowed LL to thrive. Its harder for us locals to nip into the centre concentrating demand for locally supplied goods and services. Once the area has enough shops it then can start pulling people in from outside the local area as LL does now. Not sure if LL could have started its initial phase of regeneration if people had lots of easily accessible alternatives. Now that its consolidated, better transport links might further enhance it as it will allow for even more footfall.

[Huguenot]

Crossrail 2 is a bit of a daft comparison.

It's under consideration because Euston is intended to be the hub of a new high speed line running from Edinburgh and Newcastle to Paris and onwards - bringing the huge influx of international traffic and commerce that needs to be channelled to commercial areas.

Since we don't have a high speed international rail in East Dulwich and the consequent additional 20,000 passengers we're hardly on the same playing field are we?

Unless there are some considerable urban regeneration projects in development we can't anticipate the uprated rail service any time soon.

If you prioritize an LU service, be prepared for ED to no longer be the ED that you know and love.

[lane lover]

LondonMix Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Some might argue the lack of good transport is

> what has allowed LL to thrive. Its harder for us

> locals to nip into the centre concentrating demand

> for locally supplied goods and services. Once the

> area has enough shops it then can start pulling

> people in from outside the local area as LL does

> now. Not sure if LL could have started its

> initial phase of regeneration if people had lots

> of easily accessible alternatives. Now that its

> consolidated, better transport links might further

> enhance it as it will allow for even more

> footfall.

I tend to agree with this point. I rarely see the need to leave ED on weekends, which is fine with me!

I also compare ED with Brixton and Clapham. I actually like the relative peace in ED - everytime I go to Brixton or Clapham its manic! I love visiting Brixton, but couldnt live there.

If Peckham / Camberwell continue to become better connected, we also benefit - but also remain that one step removed. Which is nice, as it keeps ED "off the map".

[LondonMix]

Couldn't agree more with the last two posts. Some people who've recently moved to ED from busier areas might miss it. However, we picked ED because its in zone 2 but fairly quiet with just enough going on that you don't feel like you are living in a complete suburban backwater. Our friends from outside the area love it here, particularly the small scale of everything and the woods and parks. Outside of central London, I honestly can say that only Richmond and Hampstead have better green spaces in my opinion than this general part of SE London including Brockwell Park and Sydnahm Woods etc. Diminishing that through the creation of of a station on Peckham Rye Common would be a shame but if the overall project is really worthwhile then I'll support it.

[jn]

was not comparing to crossrail 2, was saying it should be prioritised, i.e built first, or at the very least at similar times... if conservative government are serious about infrastructure spending then why can they guarentee both projects?

[Medley]

I'm not sure I buy this 'the Tube will ruin ED' line. It hasn't ruined Richmond or Hampstead, the places referenced above.

In any case the Bakerloo extension is about far more than ED (I appreciate this is the ED Forum), and in fact is fairly likely not to come to ED at all (if it ever goes anywhere) but to Camberwell, Peckham, New Cross.

The comparison to Crossrail 2 is not daft in the sense of transport infrastructure spending on routes that already have much better provision than south east London does. One chain looking at the Crossrail 2 map showed me was that:

- if you have decent transport links people will use them

- then they get overcrowded

- then you need to relieve those.

Crossrail 2 has been mooted since God knows when - the route's been safeguarded since 1991 for Heaven's sake - so it most definitely isn't just about HS2 at Euston. It's a mix of relieving Waterloo (the busiest station in the country), Victoria, the Victoria line, some central Tube lines and Euston/King's X/St P, even Liv St I guess.

Just can't get away from the stark feeling that most of the enormous transport investment planned in London is passing south east London by.

[????]

aahhh, so you remember Hampstead before circa 1908?

[GEEKASAURUS]

I too don't see why it must be 'bakerloo vs crossrail 2'. Why not both? Clearly they both have proponents and there are benefits foreseeable through both schemes. If infrastructure spending is truly to increase as Boris et al suggest then there is scope for both. I don't see it as coincidence that a more affluent area's proposed scheme (chelsea) by default has a greater perceived acceptance and feasibility vs south east London.

[Huguenot]

Hee hee

"I'm not sure I buy this 'the Tube will ruin ED' line. It hasn't ruined Richmond or Hampstead, the places referenced above."

Yes, because you can afford to live in Richmond or Hampstead right?

'Ruin' is a value judgement. The one thing that ED won't be is the one we know and love with various social tribes rubbing along in harmony save the odd 'first world problem'. (Read push chair sniping).

[bil]

The tube isn't planning to come to ED is it? There is a possibility of rye common but really the priority needs to be camberwell. The bus routes are slow and heaving with over-capacity in the morning and all of the major bus routes from ED into central go via Camberwell. It's probably faster to jog from Kings to elephant via Walworth road than take the bus.

[Jeremy]

I agree that the transport in Camberwell needs adressing more urgently that ED. Especially now that services from Denmark Hill into central London have been reduced.

[appers]

"Extension: the Mayor confirmed his wish to take the line from Elephant and Castle to Camberwell and Peckham and probably overground to Bromley after pressure from Labour-run Southwark council"

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/boris-johnson-bakerloo-line-extension-to-peckhams-time-has-come-8540510.html