Dulwich Park middle class?

[Penguin68]

In the Sunday Times today Rod Liddle describes Dulwich Park as 'the second most middle class place on Earth'. Discuss.

[Ani]

Which was the first?!!

[KalamityKel]

yeah!

[Penguin68]

Which was the first?!!

Not mentioned by Mr Liddle. It wasn't a list but a description to locate a 'humerous' overheard comment.

[Ani]

I imagine it might be Richmond Park or Wimbledon Common perhaps?

[SteveUK1978]

I cannot stand Rod Liddle.

However, probably not far wrong on this occasion.

Then again I am just about to head to a golf club for Sunday lunch, not sure it gets more middle class (middle aged even?) than that.

[Applespider]

Probably counts as middle class because there are tennis courts which still have nets attached and there's working gym equipment...

I cycle through the park on the way to/from work and always think that there's a great mix of people using it. From dogwalkers in the morning to people playing tennis, kids on bikes/skates, joggers, walkers, people reading on benches, schoolkids chatting in groups. I always thought it was pretty diverse!

Richmond Park with all its weekend MAMILs on ridiculously expensive bikes always feels far more stratified. It must be the number 1 park... although suspect Kensington Gardens is up there too...

[PeckhamRose]

Ummm, excuse me, new to this one: MAMILs?

[Louisa]

Of course Dulwich Park is the ultimate in middle-class. It's sandwiched between The village which is genuinely and solidly middle England, and then there's our little wannabe patch of south Peckham. I actually don't mind people from the village being middle class, they do it with refinement and sophistication (and let's face it they have money), whereas the ED blow-ins who can't afford Clapham tend to be the types who have nothing but like to brag about it (snobs basically). I still love Dulwich Park, but I miss the old days when the odd traffic cone floated around on the lake, the cafe was more basic and down to earth and didn't cost a small fortune for a sandwich and cup of tea, and the faint smell of urine lingered around the less than salubrious toilet facilities.

Louisa.

[Applespider]

PeckhamRose Wrote:

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> Ummm, excuse me, new to this one: MAMILs?

Middle Aged Men in Lycra

I saw one there the other week with a black/yellow Pinarello bike (probably worth around ?8000 with wheels/chainset) and matching black/yellow bibshorts along with a world champion's jersey. It was just a pity that his beer gut stretched the stripes so out of shape...

[Robert Poste's Child]

Louisa Wrote:

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> I miss

> the old days when ... the faint smell of

> urine lingered around the less than salubrious

> toilet facilities.

Why the past tense? It's still good for that one at least.

I'm also struggling to think of anywhere more middle class. Except all of Surrey, obviously.

[JamesMS]

Am I the only person who finds the obsession with class on the EDf tedious and lazy (or, frankly, simply rude in the case of Louisa's post)?

[Robert Poste's Child]

The obsession with the middle class (probably with class generally) is a predominantly middle-class thing as the middle is necessarily full of people whose status is open to question. I find it rather touching.

[Louisa]

JamesMS just an observation. It's no secret that the Dulwich conurbation is possibly the most middle-class inner London suburb, certainly south of the river anyway. I don't see what's rude about suggesting a large proportion of the blow-ins want to be living in the village but simply cannot afford it so they come to ED and patronise the resident (and somewhat declining) working class population. Water off a ducks back of course, for me anyway. Why would no one want us to discuss class anyhow? Is it an uncomfortable topic for the blow-in wannabes? Does it hit home for them somewhat? Or maybe there's a more sinister plot ahead which involves banishing the remaining working class residents from using Dulwich Park altogether!

Bring back the traffic cones and corned beef sandwiches in cling-film.

Louisa.

[BrandNewGuy]

Louisa Wrote:

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> I actually don't mind people from the

> village being middle class, they do it with

> refinement and sophistication (and let's face it

> they have money)

Hmmm, I see Dulwich Village as insufferably dull, with crap places to eat and little sign of refinement or sophistication. There are some attractive houses on Dulwich Village itself, but the surrounding roads are packed with respectable but dull villas. Maybe we're wearing differently tinted glasses.

[Louisa]

The village is a unique part of London, owned by a private estate, it retains rural charm, it has some stunning listed buildings the oldest picture gallery in the world, and a large number of privately owned non-chain businesses including restaurants. How could anyone describe something unique in London as dull? Surely dull, would describe what's become of most of gentrified London, with homogenous former working class high streets with chain boutique shops and ugly old Victorian buildings painted and overhauled for the new residents. Nothing unique about that, same old, lifeless 'new' London, with the working class charm and character replaced by boring blow-in culture involving wide buggies and coffee shops. Yawn.

Louisa.

[Loz]

Ani Wrote:

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> Which was the first?!!

Waitrose.

[BrandNewGuy]

Louisa Wrote:

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> and a large number of

> privately owned non-chain businesses

Like EastDulwich

> including restaurants.

Pizza Express? Cafe Rouge?

And 'working class' London has wide buggies and coffee shops too, which makes things confusing for a cardboard cutout class warrior.

[Louisa]

BrandNewGuy Wrote:

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> Louisa Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > and a large number of

> > privately owned non-chain businesses

> Like EastDulwich

>

> > including restaurants.

> Pizza Express? Cafe Rouge?

GBK? Cafe Nero? White stuff? How many of these businesses were present when the area was predominately working class? Zero! The lane was almost exclusively independent shops other than Gateway and the old Co-Op opposite Bejams. All still chains today!

>

> And 'working class' London has wide buggies and

> coffee shops too, which makes things confusing for

> a cardboard cutout class warrior.

Where is working class london? I don't see wide buggies in Lewisham, nor do I see tedious coffee shop after coffee shop!

I can't believe I've been dragged into an Easter class war on the most holy day in the Christian calendar. Furious.

Louisa.

[holloway]

The picture gallery is the best thing about Dulwich village hands down (even perhaps London I might add). Other than that there is naff all in Dulwich village, and it's a nightmare to get in and out of.

[BrandNewGuy]

Louisa Wrote:

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> > > and a large number of

> > > privately owned non-chain businesses

> > Like EastDulwich

> >

> > > including restaurants.

> > Pizza Express? Cafe Rouge?

>

> GBK? Cafe Nero? White stuff?

I didn't say anything about East Dulwich's chains. You said that Dulwich Village has "a large number of privately owned non-chain businesses including restaurants" and I pointed out that two of the three (?) restaurants in Dulwich Village are chains.

[Silvia78]

''I can't believe I've been dragged into an Easter class war on the most holy day in the Christian calendar. Furious. ''

Who exactly 'dragged' you in Louisa? Obviously you have too much time to be bored on the most holy day...

I find this discussion so ridiculous. I am not from England, therefore I wasn't brought up with your incredible fixation with everything to do with class! I find it normal that when people have the means, the education and the will to be surrounded by 'nice things and people' , would want to do just that...moving to an area where they can enjoy things that are relevant to them. I don't understand people who feel nostalgic about piss smell and dodgy characters. If you do...please feel free to move to Peckham.

I have lived in UK/London for 12 years now, from West Hampstead, to FInchley road, to Clapham, Tooting and finally a year ago I moved to ED with my husband and child. And I bloody love it!!!

[Louisa]

Rocca and Crown & Greyhound are not chains and both serve food. There are also a few other shops on the parade further towards the station independently owned and serving food/drink. Statistically, the village is no more chain dominated than anywhere else in London, I'd actually say it was less served by chains than average for its demographic. ED used to be the same, it's now more chain dominated than it's wealthier neighbour.

Dulwich village doesn't just have the picture gallery which I agree holloway is an amazing asset to Dulwich. However, do not overlook the Old Burial Ground http://www.ukattraction.com/london/dulwich-old-cemetery.htm, one of the most amazing local historical attractions in London, again unique. The only working toll gate in London, unique. Charles Dickens lived in the village and wrote his book Pickwick Papers and based many of the local characters on the fictional ones he used in his book http://www.dulwichsociety.com/2012-summer/718-pickwick-cottage, note Pickwick cottage here too. Pond cottages, old farm workers buildings near the main entrance to Dulwich College, a throw back to Dulwich being a rural outpost in Surrey. So much to get the imagination going. And yet, people think that a neighbouring uniformed late Victorian urban sprawl is more interesting (especially since the middle class saviours came in and turned it into a homogenous neighborhood).

Louisa.

[Loz]

Louisa Wrote:

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> Rocca and Crown & Greyhound are not chains and both serve food.

The Dog is part of the Castle pub chain/brand owned by Mitchells & Butlers pubco.

[Louisa]

Silvia78 Wrote:

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>

> Who exactly 'dragged' you in Louisa? Obviously you

> have too much time to be bored on the most holy

> day.

People generally wind me up by suggesting things which are obviously false. It is without question, I am not a fan of the new look ED and class topics make my blood boil. And for me to enter such a debate on a special day as this makes it all the more grating for me.

>

> I find this discussion so ridiculous. I am not

> from England, therefore I wasn't brought up with

> your incredible fixation with everything to do

> with class!

And no other country is obsessed with class? Canada, USA, India, South Africa, Japan, Russia.. And the list goes on.

I find it normal that when people have

> the means, the education and the will to be

> surrounded by 'nice things and people' , would

> want to do just that...moving to an area where

> they can enjoy things that are relevant to them.

And that's fine. But many of the people who chose to come to ED, came here when it wasn't dominated by said wonderful 'nice things and people' - it was a predominately working class area. These people came here because they couldn't afford those lovely expensive areas further south and west of us. Not only did they come here en mass to buy up housing stock, they also forced house prices up and many of the working class folk born and raised here of all colours and backgrounds were no longer able to afford to buy around here. Many of the shops and pubs they knew and recognised were taken over and aimed at the incomers. So yes, the new folk surrounded themselves with the things they loved, but they chose a cheaper area to do it in and displaced the existing community in doing so, rather than happily co-existing alongside them.

> I don't understand people who feel nostalgic about

> piss smell and dodgy characters. If you

> do...please feel free to move to Peckham.

Are you suggesting Peckham is full of dodgy characters and piss smells? And anyway, I wasn't being nostalgic about it. I was simply saying I liked it when we were a less pretentious neighbourhood with 'real people' and less of the old oneupmanship involving crappy boutiques no one goes in to buy, but more to be seen in. Ridiculous.

Maybe middle class people should reflect that life existed before they came here. Before they transformed the area. These people even believe that they are more cultured. It's just embarrassingly middle-class and English and patronising and everything else that makes London ridiculously expensive and gives us as a country a snobby reputation abroad.

Louisa.