Future Thameslink service from Peckham Rye

[Earl Aelfheah]

Public transport in this area is just not acceptable. I had to meet a mate in Waterloo yesterday. We left at roughly the same time - me travelling approximately 4 miles from East Dulwich and him, around 18 miles from Walton. Guess who got there first?

[RichJ]

Totally agree about the Thameslink service from Denmark Hill. I use this service to a Blackfriars every day (at varying times each morning) and think the current service is abysmal. I wrote an email of complaint about this last year but was fobbed off with a typical vague response. There are various issues:

1. Punctuality and over-crowding. I don?t think I have got a single train that has been on time this year. Evening trains from Blackfriars have been slightly better than the morning ones but not by much. The morning trains are absolutely packed and I have certainly been left on the platform many times before. There is such a high volume of use than any delay (and there invariably is one) means numbers start to build on the platform, creating the inevitable scrum to get on. Four carriage trains are useless given the numbers - for example, if there is a problem with the 9.07 then the four carriage 9.13 makes only the slightest dent in the crowds on the platform.

2. Timing of the trains. I don?t understand the reasons for the timetable. There are long periods with no train (7.37 to 8.04 and 8.45 to 9.07) and then some very short ones (9.07 to 9.13). It would be much better if the gaps between services were evened out a bit.

3. Information at Denmark Hill. There are rarely any announcements made at Denmark Hill so if you are on the platform, you never know what is going on. There is only information board, so if you are up at one end of the platform, you can?t even see that.

Service was pretty average under Southeastern but is has been shocking under Govia. It is particularly galling when you hear that the reason for the delay is insufficient drivers or a driver not showing for work. WTF?

[Medley]

In the short term, there's a pressing need for a better deal for passengers on:

- compensation (I see London TravelWatch are calling for this)

- information

- extra services if at all possible

- reliability

Beyond that, I think the only hope is to take these sorts of services away from the National Rail franchising model and to the London Overground model. Within-London travel needs:

- sufficient frequency to turn up and go (4tph at least)

- reliability far above what this line is currently delivering

- a focus on London, not getting people to and from Sevenoaks, St Albans etc

- appropriate rolling stock

- appropriate staffing and lighting etc. Take a trip to Crofton Park and drink in the collapsing stairs, leaking roofs, permanent stench of urine, abysmal information, mostly shut ticket office, lack of ticket barriers...and marvel that the 2 or if you're lucky 3 trains per hour (which may be 4 or 8 car, at whim) are nevertheless absolutely rammed at peak times, and pretty busy even at quiet times.

Even according to the official (Office of Rail Regulation) data, which has lots of flaws, entries and exits at Crofton Pk

2013-14 = 690,000

2012-13 = 593,000

The service is unchanged.

Peckham Rye

2013-14 = 4.7m

2012-13 = 3.7m

Denmark Hill

2013-14 = 5.2m

2012-13 = 3.9m

These growth rates are heroic. But either the service is the same (with the odd exception - Overground when it came in at P Rye) or worse due to London Bridge remodelling etc.

And that's the service as planned, which as we're seeing on this thread is very different from the service as run, particularly in the morning peak London-bound.

Here's how the P Rye to Blackfriars service has performed in the last month:

http://recenttraintimes.co.uk/Home/Search?Op=Srch&Fr=Peckham+Rye+%28PMR%29&To=Blackfriars+%28BFR%29&TimTyp=A&TimDay=6a&Days=Wk&TimPer=4w&dtFr=18%2F12%2F2014&dtTo=15%2F01%2F2015&ShwTim=AvAr&TOC=All&ArrSta=5&MetAvg=Mea&MetSpr=RT&MxScDu=&MxSvAg=10&MnScCt=2&MxArCl=5

The 08.01 and the 08.16 seem to be managing to arrive within 5 minutes (which the railways count as on time) only 58% of the time.

And if you think that's bad, try P Rye to London Bridge:

http://recenttraintimes.co.uk/Home/Search?Op=Srch&Fr=Peckham+Rye+%28PMR%29&To=London+Bridge+%28LBG%29&TimTyp=A&TimDay=6a&Days=Wk&TimPer=4w&dtFr=18%2F12%2F2014&dtTo=15%2F01%2F2015&ShwTim=AvAr&TOC=All&ArrSta=5&MetAvg=Mea&MetSpr=RT&MxScDu=&MxSvAg=10&MnScCt=2&MxArCl=5

33% for the 08.23, 44% for the 08.33 and 25% for the 08.54!

No doubt the train co will say ah, but that's on the old timetable - not the much longer journey time schedule they've brought in with the London Bridge works.

[njc97]

Renata,

I get on at Nunhead (so slihglty further out) and at just after 9am, so avoid the big crush. But the train hasnt run on time this year (although not as bad as Thameslink/National Rail definition of "delayed" whereby you dont get compensation unless it's more than 30 minutes late). But any problems like a cancelled train and even at that time you struggle to get on the next one and can get left behind. 5 years ago I would always get a seat as well, nowadays it's rare.

And evening trains generally leave Blackfriars on time but it's always a challenge to find the most empty carriage, so I can stand in comfort, rather than being squashed up against people like in the other 7.

I know putting more trains on is v difficult with timetables, but why aren't we they extending platforms to give us 12 carriage trains? Like the proudly proclaim they are doing on the other lines... And dont get me started on weekends when they run 4 carriages!

[Earl Aelfheah]

Good post Medley.

[bonaome]

I used to aim to get the 8:19 DMK - ZFD. I know exactly where to stand on the platform such that I almost always got on the train. However that still means standing usually to City Thameslink. Up to Elephant, it meant standing in uncomfortably crammed conditions, ie. with no space whatsoever other commuters.

The rolling stock is being replaced - I hope for something less geared towards people doing a trip from Sevenoaks to Luton (padded seats facing) and more geared to commuters (tube / overground style seating).

DMK station was refurbished. Sadly they missed the opportunity to put an entrance/exit in Windsor Walk. The entrance/exit as currently structured is dangerously overcrowded and very badly structured for peak time.

If a train is cancelled, the knock-on effect on the next train means that even knowing exactly where to stand at DMK, you still cannot always get on.

Sometimes I'd get 8:26 - usually a bit quieter. You still have to know where to stand on the platform if you want to be reasonably sure of getting on (you won't if the 8:19 was cancelled or is so late the 8:26 is in front of it).

As a new year resolution I've been going to work earlier. I've been getting the 7:37. Standing room only to Elephant, not usually as crowded as the 8:19, most days manage to get a seat from Elephant to ZFD. It has been on time once since I started getting on Mon-Fri from Jan 5th.

[cle]

Plus there are trains which run through DH/PR which don't stop and have plenty of seats - the nicer trains they use to Brighton (the same as the Southern Brighton ones but not green).

As with Southeastern, they could realise that stopping some trains from further out in the peaks will help even out crowding - plus offers Overground connections. Denmark Hill does seem to be slightly in more need, but they could alternate. Both stops would piss people off. And I think there was some snobbery from Kent people/council a while back about 'stopping in Peckham'.

[Medley]

The attempt by TfL to get its paws on part of Southeastern was partly defeated by Kent MPs and folk (wrongly) claiming that it would wreck their commutes

[KrackersMaracas]

I have much the same experience of others posting on here in regard to Denmark Hill - overcrowded delayed trains, trouble getting into the new station (entrance too small/too many people for the number of gates). There is a lovely chap in the office area who says "good morning" to everyone who passes but sometimes it baffles me that they just don't open the gates to let people in - it's particularly bad on Mondays with everyone queuing to buy a new pass. A particular gripe of mine is the uneven service (8.45 to 9.04; 7.39 to 8.04). I'm aware that there are a number of trains on the track in the blackfriars area (I.e. The herne hill trains) but I think this uneven nature contributes to train crowding...and of course people struggling to get on delays the trains even further.

Separately I wondered if anyone else had noticed some new trains coming in running from lewisham to peckham rye through to blackfriars? I popped on one the other day (8.13 or 8.32) and everyone else getting on was looking around like Christmas had come early & they couldn't believe their eyes! Seats a plenty! Room to breathe! Still not on time but at least I arrived at work without having been shoved up into someone's lumpy backpack. Not sure if it is permanent but I think these will be very helpful. If you need to go further than blackfriars it's just a hop across the platform to the next northbound train.

[toffeese15]

ann coley Wrote:

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> I use the Peckham/ Blackfriars train every morning

> - usually the 8-42. It has been crammed every

> morning this week and was particularly bad this

> morning when the 8-36 was apparantly cancelled (no

> information on the platform - it showed on the

> indicator board but just didn't show up).

> I have also noticed that the 18-04 back to Peckham

> from Blackfrias has got much busier since

> Christmas.

> (Long time lurker - it took the trains to finally

> make me comment!).

I normally cycle to work but have had to use the train a couple of times this year. I was shocked and appalled by the overcrowding on the 18:04 train from Blackfriars to Peckham, and amazed at the patience and good humour displayed by the regular commuters, for whom this must be a frequent occurrence.

I know it's an old and overused cliche but you really would not be allowed to transport livestock in such terrible conditions. From my limited occasional experience of using the trains on that line, there is clearly an urgent need for additional trains.

I'd re-nationalise the railways myself.

[James]

Given both Peckham Rye and Denmark Hill are both in zone 2, surely we need AT THE VERY LEAST 4 tph all day on all major routes?

2tph would be acceptable for a small satellite town but this is zone two of London, a major interchange and with no tube!!

[poppet27]

Can sympathise with all of the Peckham- ZFD or Blackfriars commuters. You have to be very strategic about where to stand on the platform before you squeeze on and meet the armpit of a fellow commuter.

When I worked in Farringdon, my stress levels were through the roof before I even got to work. The 8:36 is packed and or cancelled, and don't even mention the existence of the 08:42. Also - really unhelpful, random times.

I now take the 08:23 Overground to Clapham J from the other platform which is also always late; every day. Southern also promised upgrades to the station, but platform 2 still has no roof tiles or working LED board.

As SE London inevitably gets more popular due to everywhere else being stupendously unaffordable, surely someone is going to have to radically upgrade the quality, frequency and capacity of trains? Here's hoping.

[Strawbs]

On the delayed 8.01 this morning and it's busy!! I do try and get the 7.34 when I can but childcare doesn't always allow for this unfortunately. I took these pics after the elephant and castle 'clear out' as you can see still pretty busy. I don't get stressed about not getting a seat tbh as I go to city thameslink so a pretty short journey but sometimes actually getting off the train is just as challenging as getting on!! In an ideal world we would have an extra couple of carriages, trains that aren't delayed as this leads to busier trains and another train between the 7.34 and 8.01 to try and relieve the pressure a bit - a girl can dream!!

[JohnL]

Strawbs Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> On the delayed 8.01 this morning and it's busy!!

> I do try and get the 7.34 when I can but childcare

> doesn't always allow for this unfortunately. I

> took these pics after the elephant and castle

> 'clear out' as you can see still pretty busy. I

> don't get stressed about not getting a seat tbh as

> I go to city thameslink so a pretty short journey

> but sometimes actually getting off the train is

> just as challenging as getting on!! In an ideal

> world we would have an extra couple of carriages,

> trains that aren't delayed as this leads to busier

> trains and another train between the 7.34 and 8.01

> to try and relieve the pressure a bit - a girl can

> dream!!

Everyone seems happy in those photo's :)

I've been on some where everyones grumpy.

[Lmcg46]

I've been getting the 7.31 from Nunhead to Farringdon for a few years now. I moved to this one as the 8.15 then the 8am got too busy. Gradually too though, I've seen the chance of getting a seat get more and more remote. Now it's a question as to whether I can actually get on the train some mornings, it's so full! I'm presuming it's due to cancellations or something further down the line. But I've had a week off since the changes happened at London Bridge / Honor Oak and I have to say, I'm dreading what the impact is going to be.

It's getting silly that I need to get to work before 8am for a 9am job if I want to be sure of getting on a train! (I've given up on any question of a seat.....I just don't want to have my face in an armpit/book every morning!)

[Nigello]

Would poor peak-time transport encourage people to take advantage of any flexi working at their work, or ask their employer to introduce it? I know only a certain amount of people would be able to do it, but if the commute is debilitating then shifting the hours of work would be a solution.

[rodneybewes]

Nigello Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Would poor peak-time transport encourage people to

> take advantage of any flexi working at their work,

> or ask their employer to introduce it? I know only

> a certain amount of people would be able to do it,

> but if the commute is debilitating then shifting

> the hours of work would be a solution.

I moved my hours from 9-5 to 7.30-3.30 in part to work with Australian and Asian colleagues but also to deal with the poor commute. This works for me but wouldn't necessarily be ok for everyone's role. And if you've got kids you are stuffed.

The company I work for is moving to a new office with a smaller footprint per person which they want to offset by expanding flexible working. The consultants they have been working with have apparently been pointing to studies showing that commuting in London will get significantly worse over the next twenty years as nothing that is planned will deal with the projected increase in people going to work in London.

I can't see really how it's going to change unless they come up with something radical involving completely segregated cycle superhighways that people actually feel safe on and/or double decker trains etc. Be interesting to see what effect the east-west Crossrail link will have.

[Jeremy]

7.30-3.30... sounds good... is your employer hiring any developers at the moment?

[Earl Aelfheah]

The problem with building more lines in from the suburbs is that you just encourage more people to live further out and commute in. There should be investment going into fast, frequent inner London transport and policies to encourage both remote working (including cheap high speed internet) and do what you can to facilitate people to live closer to where they work.

[Nicla]

More grist for your mill Renata.

Late last year I gave up getting the 7.34 Peckham Rye - Farringdon (then on to Euston Sq) after using the route daily for several years. Just too unpleasantly packed and occasionally not able to get on at all.

I now exclusively use the bus on the way in. Adds 20-25 minutes to the journey but I don't arrive at work already massively stressed.

[Renata Hamvas]

Thanks everyone, who has posted so far.

Renata

[rodneybewes]

Jeremy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> 7.30-3.30... sounds good... is your employer

> hiring any developers at the moment?

Probably but all the IT guys work in our Leeds office!

[Renata Hamvas]

I spoke to Cabinet member Cllr Mark Williams last night about the current situation with the Thameslink service. The plan is that we go to visit the new service providers (they've been running this service one month!) with the information you have posted on here, pmed me with, emails and verbal communications to try and find a resolution. It has been communicated to me that yet again this morning people were left at Nunhead, Peckham Rye and Denmark Hill stations and half empty trains from Kent whizzed by on their way to Blackfriars!

To summarise, the issue is lack of capacity between 7.30-9am northbound in the morning (and also southbound 5.30-7pm.)

Residents are regularly being left on platforms at Nunhead, Peckham Rye,and Denmark Hill stations as they can't physically fit on the trains. Those on the trains feel they are dangerously overcrowded. Some passengers have felt unwell or been physically squashed, some tension between passengers due to lack of personal space has been reported, commuters are finding their commute very stressful. The situation has been worsening for some time. Some users feel unsafe using the service. Some previous users no longer do so, they take the 63 bus instead as the situation is so bad. 2018 is three years away and urgent action is required. I think that either extra trains are required from Bellingham to City Thameslink (these stations have sidings to allow trains to reverse) or the trains from Kent need to become stopping services once they hit inner London.

Do you think my summary of the situation is correct, anything else to add?

Renata

[njc97]

Renata - can you ask if there are plans to run 12 carriage trains on the line (and if not, why not). Also 7-9 is worst but not the only problems: the 9.30 is similarly unpleasantly busy, albeit people usually get on, because it's only 4 carriages long. Also any evening cancellation and the next train leaves people behind at E&C, or even Blackfriars, and it's difficult to get off at Nunhead, let alone before.

In terms of extra trains, there are two platforms unused at Blackfriars in the morning: running trains to there ought to be possible (if space further out).

[ann coley]

Renata,

Your summary reflects my experiences. Yesterday I couldn't get on to the 8-42 at Peckham and, as I have a London terminals season ticket, the alternative routes to get me to work more or less on time cost me money - getting a tube from Victoria to my destination (I usually walk from Blackfriars).

Thank you and hoping we see improvement soon.

Ann