The Palmerston (Lounged)

[TJ]

lenk Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> We don't have 'Citizen Surgeons', so why should

> 'Citizen journalism' be any better?

>

> The subjective opinion of someone whose blog gets

> literally tens of hits isn't going to sway where I

> choose to eat.

I kind of agree with you here, and also, you can't be a critic until someone is willing to pay for your services and you can claim to have a mandate.

[TJ]

lozzyloz Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I'd have to disagree with that. Not anybody can do

> Brain Surgery but most people can pass a valid

> opinion on a restaurant. There are some food

> bloggers that have a similar taste to mine and

> appear fairly consistent and trustworthy. I take

> their views into account but wouldn't necessarily

> rush out to an establishment nor blank it solely

> on their opinion.

Actually i disagree with you. To be a critic requires a pretty solid knowledge of cooking, sourcing, wine and the history of restaurants. it is a full time job. This only comes with extensive experience and a very deep pocket - which is normally funded by some kind of pubication. I can only assume fodstories does not have such resources and is therefore unable to claim a valid point.

[lozzyloz]

So are you saying that if a person who just enjoys good food (expensive or not) can cook a little, though not classically trained, enjoys a tipple, but wine knowledge limited to personal experience and watching Clarke and May, and not backed by media money can't have a valid opinion?

[Jeremy]

Nothing wrong with writing a few amateur restaurant reviews. They are what they are, readers are free to ignore it if they feel the author isn't qualified!

[lenk]

lozzyloz Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> So are you saying that if a person who just enjoys

> good food (expensive or not) can cook a little,

> though not classically trained, enjoys a tipple,

> but wine knowledge limited to personal experience

> and watching Clarke and May, and not backed by

> media money can't have a valid opinion?

On the contrary. They can write what they want.

It's just unlikely that many people are going to read it.

[Siduhe]

TJ Wrote:

> I can only assume foodstories does not have such resources and is therefore unable to claim a valid point.

I'm not sure I have understood this correctly, but are you saying that her opinion as a paying customer is invalid because she doesn't get paid to post up her comments on her blog? In which case, why do we all bother asking for and responding to recommendations on this forum for anything whether it be food, shops or local services? It's the same thing isn't it? I really hope I have misunderstood what you are trying to say, and apologies if so.

Foodstories never claimed to be a professional critic and I don't understand why her views as a paying customer should be somehow discounted because of that. I'm very much with lozzyloz that there are some good food bloggers out there and I enjoy reading their reviews, in much the same way there are people on this forum whose opinions and knowledge I have come to respect over the time I've posted here.

This thread has truly entered the realms of the bizarre.

[Edited for spelling]

[DaveR]

It's not whether the opinion of bloggers/amateur critics are valid but whether they should be accorded any more weight than any other individual

Somewhere on this thread (or another) Foodstories used the phrase "us foodies do tend to get a little over excited about the food, we can't help it!" and someone else introduced themselves with "I'm a London food blogger"; consciously or not, it seems to me to be seeking to invest yourself with a bit more authority than A N Other contributor (hence the violent collision between the worlds of EDF and Twitter/blogging). It's perfectly possible to be passionate and ill-informed about a subject.

[Siduhe]

DaveR Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It's not whether the opinion of bloggers/amateur

> critics are valid but whether they should be

> accorded any more weight than any other

> individual

>

Ah, well that I very much agree with - a customer is a customer - apologies to TJ if this was what was meant - I just didn't quite get it. Although a customer who regularly eats out in similar restaurants may have more to say by way of comparison with other establishments, than someone who only eats out once in a blue moon.

[louisiana]

"you can't be a critic until someone is willing to pay for your services and you can claim to have a mandate."

There a quite a few people who are not paid to write about a subject who nevertheless have very worthwhile opinions. For example, on the subject of wine, producers, specialist distributors, dealers, and collectors. I have always valued reports from specialists of their visits to vineyards, or about new producers, or tastings conducted, and have always listened to opinions from subject-matter specialists on particular niche areas. If the person has a particular expertise and interest, then they are worth listening to in my books, whether anyone pays them to write about those opinions or not.

Unfortunately, much of mainstream wine writing in the generalist UK press is directed at supporting a particular market segment (cheap exports of plonk to UK supermarkets). Plonk reviews are paid for, but they are often not worth the paper they are written on (particularly when some element of the payment is in kind, by the producer/distributor concerned: free cases of wine at Christmas; weekends away at the vineyard with spouse; or even grand national tours of wineries, all-expenses paid).

I write as someone who was paid in the distant past to write about wine and fortified wine from particular parts of Europe (including in UK broadsheets), and who has in the past been served free meals and drinks by restaurateurs and other traders seeking published kind words about their products. I've just been doing up the house, and OMG I have here a case of slides that include a box of bizarre pix from an Australian outfit that invited me along to an eight-person presentation dinner of Oz food and drink. It went on for six hours. Entertaining, but why they invited me I shall never know. And recently some old not-bad Spanish distillate in some truly naff bottles emerged while I was doing up the kitchen: six flasks were flown across Europe at vast expense on Christmas Eve one year, in a desperate attempt by the producers to get some reviews from any old hacks (including two political journalists). Thankfully, all of that is a long way behind me now, and I'm about to throw away the evidence :-S

[EDOldie]

I think restaurant critic is the most difficult job in the world. I'm sticking with the amateur brain surgery. Any volunteers?

[Keef]

I can only assume foodstories does not have such resources and is therefore unable to claim a valid point.

Whilst I agree with DaveR's point above, I still find this to be quite worrying. Clarkson gets paid for his opinions, do I listen to a word he says? No, I think he's a complete tool!

[Siduhe]

Keef, that's the bit that threw me too.

Although I might replace Jeremy Clarkson of your example with, say, Melanie Phillips...

[The Palmerston]

cate Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I would like to ask Will at the Palmerston why the

> side dishes for the set lunch are extra. Went

> there recently and had to pay extra for

> vegetables. The set lunch at The Herne includes a

> side dish of chips in the case of the hamburger.

In simple terms, They are different establishments catering for different markets. The Herne is a family pub serving food that is simpler, more traditional pub food. The Palmerston offers high quality food served in an informal environment. I'm afraid I don't have the chefs costings to hand but I'm sure that the it is more cost effective to serve chips with a burger at the Herne than it would be to serve Jersey Royals, for example, with the Sea Bass at the Palmerston.

Although run by the same people, the two pubs are actually run as seperate companies and as such there is a level of independence.

> I wanted the fish on the menu at the Palmerston

> and the one advertised had finished so was offered

> sea bass. It was good but the portion was tiny.

> I only had two courses, starter and entree, and

> went home hungry which has never happened at The

> Herne when I have their set 2 course lunch.

The Lunch menu still offers great value for money, but it is designed as a light meal rather than a full on feed. The main market at that time of day is for people out shopping of people on their lunch break who require something quick and light. Our A'la Carte menu is availble for those after something a bit more substantial. It's a balancing act really, trying to offer fast, good food at a competetive price. Usually I think people are satisfied.

> I looked on the Palmerston website recently and the

> menus have not been updated since April. The

> prices for the side dishes are also lower than

> they are now. But the cost for the set lunch has

> gone down by 50p. So set lunch price down, but

> side orders up.

I'm certain the set lunch price is the same now as it was then. We've only raised the price once in the time I've been with the company (4 years) but the price of side dishes will vary, but not by much. I think everything is around ?3 except for chips which are cheaper and Jersey Royals which are more expensive. But they always are.

> Surely a set lunch should mean

> necessary side dishes should come with the main

> dish as necessary ie fish and new potatoes; steak

> and chips.

If we included the veg with the dishes the price would have to rise to compensate. I think many people enjoy the choice of sides and like to share as most of them are suitable for two people. It's never going to be to everyone's expectations.

The most encouraging thing about your post is that we are able to satisfy most peoples needs. If they don't like the Palmerston the chances are they will like the Herne and vice versa. We would much rather offer people something different at each establishment rather than roll out the same formula everywhere we go.

I hope you continue to enjoy your experiences at the Herne.

Will.

[andyjg]

Thought I'd add my two cents as the Palmerston has long been a bone of contention for me! I've been there twice...

The first time, a couple of years ago, a friend and I went in for a couple of drinks. I asked the barman if there was a minimum cost to use a credit/debit card to pay. He said the limit was something like a tenna but not to worry, because the drinks are all very expensive and I'd easily go over the limit! Admired his honesty but yes, the drinks were expensive.

The second time, just over a year ago, a mate and I decided to eat there. I asked for a steak which I assumed would come with at least a bit of salad since it cost - from memory - ?17. The waitress warned me that the steak is just that, a steak. So I had to order chips and salad as extras. I wouldn't really have minded the cost if it was really good stuff, but for what came to about thirty quid (exc. cost of drinks) I had a distinctly average steak and a very small bowl of french fries. A disappointing experience; just felt ripped off as I've had much better meals a fair bit cheaper.

Have always found Franklins to be good for a nice dining experience without getting massively ripped off.

[RosieH]

louisiana Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> "you can't be a critic until someone is willing to

> pay for your services and you can claim to have a

> mandate."

...

> I write as someone who was paid in the distant

> past to write about wine and fortified wine from

> particular parts of Europe

Louisiana, I write as someone on the other side of the equation and it seems that things may have changed considerably in recent years. It can be nigh on impossible to get a broadsheet wine writer onto a lavish press trip - but even if you do, there's no guarantee that they'll write about the wine at the end of it, or that if they do, that it'll be a positive review.

Perhaps I was doing it wrong, but if I'd known I could have slipped Jancis or Tim Atkin a couple of cases of australian plonk in return for a good write up, I would have had some very happy clients. These days, it's bloggers who tend to get targeted for press trips - altogether an easier sell.

Edited to say, not posting to be argumentative, just that I think some journos can be given the benefit of the doubt not to have been paid off.

[HonaloochieB]

andyjg Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Thought I'd add my two cents as the Palmerston has

> long been a bone of contention for me! I've been

> there twice...

>

> The first time, a couple of years ago, a friend

> and I went in for a couple of drinks. I asked the

> barman if there was a minimum cost to use a

> credit/debit card to pay. He said the limit was

> something like a tenna but not to worry, because

> the drinks are all very expensive and I'd easily

> go over the limit! Admired his honesty but yes,

> the drinks were expensive.

In 2007 you visited The Palmerston and paid for 'a couple' of drinks with credit/debit card. At the time I reckon the cost of a pint in there was approx ?3.20ish. Jesus two of you having drinks at the bar. USE CASH. COME ON MAN UP. Using a card for beer at a bar makes you look like a frail.

>

> The second time, just over a year ago, a mate and

> I decided to eat there. I asked for a steak which

> I assumed would come with at least a bit of salad

> since it cost - from memory - ?17. The waitress

> warned me that the steak is just that, a steak. So

> I had to order chips and salad as extras. I

> wouldn't really have minded the cost if it was

> really good stuff, but for what came to about

> thirty quid (exc. cost of drinks) I had a

> distinctly average steak and a very small bowl of

> french fries. A disappointing experience; just

> felt ripped off as I've had much better meals a

> fair bit cheaper.

It seems in 2008 you were charged thirteen quid for chips and salad. Jesus, how drunk and pissed-up on booze were you? A tip for the future don't be using that debit/card too much at the bar before you decide to nosh.

For future reference send out to Kebab And Wine for chips and salad when you find yourself in that situation. I reckon ?2.80 max, and a half quid tip, should see you right.

>

> Have always found Franklins to be good for a nice

> dining experience without getting massively ripped

> off.

So I won't get massively ripped off in Franklins then? I'm so there

[Ted Max]

Those anger management sessions going well then, Tommy?

[HonaloochieB]

Ted Max Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Those anger management sessions going well then,

> Tommy?

Tommy? Who?

[Ted Max]

I can't explain. It's a legal matter.

[macroban]

This thread is now going round in circles.

[HonaloochieB]

Anyway it's time to stop all this Who stuff.

Anyhow it's about time I was getting my head down.

Anywhere I lay my hat that's my home.

[EDOldie]

Careful, we'll be in the Lounge bar of the Palmeston soon.

[andyjg]

My first point about paying for a couple of drinks on a card was more anecdotal than critical - I had no issue with the place as a result, hence I returned at a later date to eat there. The barman's frankness just amused me.

At the end of the day HonaloochieB, my feeling after I left the place, when I'd eaten there, was that I'd been overcharged for what I'd got. And that's an impression that other people would appear to have too. Likewise, others including yourself clearly like it. There's no reason to be passive-aggressive about it; I'm not being cheap, neither am I unable to appreciate a good meal (I didn't go for a three quid kebab by choice) - I'm happy to pay for quality but, when I went there, my feeling was that I'd been charged more than what it was worth.

[indiepanda]

-------------------------------------------------------

> louisiana Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > "you can't be a critic until someone is willing to pay for your services and you can claim to have a mandate."

Not sure I agree with this. I think there is a place for internet reviews of things. I love perfume and find blogs and reviews on forums give much less biased reviews of the fashion magazines. As far as I can see the fashion magazines will promote any new perfume provided the company that makes it places advertising with them. I think I've never seen a critical review of a perfume in a magazine, and yet there are lots of scrubbers out there. The honest reviews you can get on line is a much better way of finding out about what real people who love perfume think about them.

Only other option is reading Luca Turin's book - now he really is a great critic.

[louisiana]

indiepanda Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > louisiana Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > "you can't be a critic until someone is

> willing to pay for your services and you can claim

> to have a mandate."

>

> Not sure I agree with this. I think there is a

> place for internet reviews of things. I love

> perfume and find blogs and reviews on forums give

> much less biased reviews of the fashion magazines.

> As far as I can see the fashion magazines will

> promote any new perfume provided the company that

> makes it places advertising with them. I think

> I've never seen a critical review of a perfume in

> a magazine, and yet there are lots of scrubbers

> out there. The honest reviews you can get on line

> is a much better way of finding out about what

> real people who love perfume think about them.

>

> Only other option is reading Luca Turin's book -

> now he really is a great critic.

Hm, indiepanda, those were not my words: they were quotes from another. The following remarks I made were my response to those quotes, and are pretty much in agreement with yours. Please read on in that post. So: I never stated the words you have attributed to me here.