Peckham man guilty of murdering French students

[Jeremy]

I agree that our penal system is not hard enough on the worst offenders, and that we often fail to keep innocent people safe from dangerous criminals.

But I can't believe that people are seriously advocating the death penalty.

[bigbadwolf]

I agree Jezza. Not for humane reasons but because it's the easy way out of real punishment where you'll die at the end of anyway.

[Keef]

I agree with Jeremy, and I'm afraid it's for humane reasons.

[bigbadwolf]

At the end of the day Keef as much as I'm advocating it over the death penalty prison on the terms I wish isn't humane either, it's essentially barbaric. Prison, execution and all other punishments handed by the courts no matter how severe or soft are a very blatant form of revenge. What is revenge. Revenge is a harmful reaction against a person or group as a response to a real or perceived wrong doing. Harmful not only in the sense that those on the receiving end will suffer physical distress but in that they'll be separated from so much such as family, friends but most importantly their normal environment. It's simply impartial revenge carried out by the state on behalf of the victim.

I do however support that those who commit crime because they're suffering a severe mental disorder should be treated for their illness rather than chucked in with a load of cut throats.

[Atila Reincarnate]

bigbadwolf Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm personally against the death sentence because

> it's the easy way out. However, I think, when the

> economy is back on it's feet the Home office

> should follow the American example of the Supermax

> prison. ADX Florence in Colorado would be a good

> template. When I say the death penalty is the easy

> way out I mean that if I was given the choice to

> spend the rest of my life in a cell for 23 hours a

> day with no human contact for those 23 hours or

> take the rope I know what my answer would be. This

> style of prison is only reserved for America's

> most dangerous criminals and are on a federal

> mandate.

>

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADX_Florence

But surely this is drain on public funds. If as in this case there is overwhelming and irrefutable evidence that the pair are guilty, then stoot or hang the evil descipable bastards, it's quick and cheap. I'm tired of hearing about the rights of the criminal, whatever happened to rights of the victims and their families fer fecks sake!!! And don't get me started on care in the community!!!

[blah]

Atila Reincarnate Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> bigbadwolf Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I'm personally against the death sentence

> because

> > it's the easy way out. However, I think, when

> the

> > economy is back on it's feet the Home office

> > should follow the American example of the

> Supermax

> > prison. ADX Florence in Colorado would be a

> good

> > template. When I say the death penalty is the

> easy

> > way out I mean that if I was given the choice

> to

> > spend the rest of my life in a cell for 23 hours

> a

> > day with no human contact for those 23 hours or

> > take the rope I know what my answer would be.

> This

> > style of prison is only reserved for America's

> > most dangerous criminals and are on a federal

> > mandate.

> >

> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADX_Florence

>

>

> But surely this is drain on public funds. If as in

> this case there is overwhelming and irrefutable

> evidence that the pair are guilty, then stoot or

> hang the evil descipable bastards, it's quick and

> cheap. I'm tired of hearing about the rights of

> the criminal, whatever happened to rights of the

> victims and their families fer fecks sake!!! And

> don't get me started on care in the community!!!

3/10

you didnt manager to get "its PC gorn mad" or "aqnother Stealth tax on motorists" into your comment

must try harder

[bigbadwolf]

You may see it as a waste of tax payers money but the methods I've laid out will be a much nastier and brutal way of punishing violent and murderous criminals such as the two who stabbed those two students. The methods I've laid out that are used by the U.S authorities for the most dangerous of offenders are put in place to crush their soul. A psychological torture that will only end once they die. I don't know about you but I'd rather loose my life than my mind.

[Jeremy]

I don't understand the "what about the rights of the family" argument.

What rights are you talking about in particular? And how will the execution of criminals fulfill those rights?

[bigbadwolf]

Sorry Jeremy are you addressing my argument?

[Moos]

Atila, quite apart from arguments of principle, capital punishment is neither quick nor cheap. People typically spend over a decade in prison after sentencing awaiting execution.

Death Penalty Information

[louisiana]

The US 'justice' system is a travesty of justice. (For example, the three strikes system in some states, where you can go to jail for life for minor offences such as shoplifting.)

The UK system seems to imprison far more, as a proportion of the population, than many of its European neighbours. And many of those neighbours have lower crime rates and/or lower rates of recidivism. I would like to know what they are doing right, and what we are doing wrong. One thing we are doing very wrong is not addressing the massive drugs and illiteracy/numeracy problems in our prisons. If prisoners cannot read or write or count, and they have little or no training, and they are still on drugs whilst in prison, and when they leave prison they just get dumped into their former environments, it is hardly surprising that they continue to do what they did before.

[bigbadwolf]

I agree Lou. My argument is only aimed at criminals who are a serious risk to the public and show a repeat pattern of re-offending. I agree that rehabilitation works and should be rigorously pursued in cases where they've only started petty offending.

[Keef]

BBW, you say that any punishment is by definition revenge. I disagree, I think revenge involves a certain emotional content.

[Atila Reincarnate]

blah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Atila Reincarnate Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > bigbadwolf Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > I'm personally against the death sentence

> > because

> > > it's the easy way out. However, I think, when

> > the

> > > economy is back on it's feet the Home office

> > > should follow the American example of the

> > Supermax

> > > prison. ADX Florence in Colorado would be a

> > good

> > > template. When I say the death penalty is the

> > easy

> > > way out I mean that if I was given the choice

> > to

> > > spend the rest of my life in a cell for 23

> hours

> > a

> > > day with no human contact for those 23 hours

> or

> > > take the rope I know what my answer would be.

> > This

> > > style of prison is only reserved for

> America's

> > > most dangerous criminals and are on a federal

> > > mandate.

> > >

> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADX_Florence

> >

> >

> > But surely this is drain on public funds. If as

> in

> > this case there is overwhelming and irrefutable

> > evidence that the pair are guilty, then stoot

> or

> > hang the evil descipable bastards, it's quick

> and

> > cheap. I'm tired of hearing about the rights of

> > the criminal, whatever happened to rights of

> the

> > victims and their families fer fecks sake!!!

> And

> > don't get me started on care in the

> community!!!

>

> 3/10

>

> you didnt manager to get "its PC gorn mad" or

> "aqnother Stealth tax on motorists" into your

> comment

>

> must try harder

So you would slap them on the wrist and tell not to be such naughty boys ever again. F**k off

[blah]

Atila Reincarnate Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> blah Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Atila Reincarnate Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > bigbadwolf Wrote:

> > >

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> >

> > > -----

> > > > I'm personally against the death sentence

> > > because

> > > > it's the easy way out. However, I think,

> when

> > > the

> > > > economy is back on it's feet the Home

> office

> > > > should follow the American example of the

> > > Supermax

> > > > prison. ADX Florence in Colorado would be a

> > > good

> > > > template. When I say the death penalty is

> the

> > > easy

> > > > way out I mean that if I was given the

> choice

> > > to

> > > > spend the rest of my life in a cell for 23

> > hours

> > > a

> > > > day with no human contact for those 23

> hours

> > or

> > > > take the rope I know what my answer would

> be.

> > > This

> > > > style of prison is only reserved for

> > America's

> > > > most dangerous criminals and are on a

> federal

> > > > mandate.

> > > >

> > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADX_Florence

> > >

> > >

> > > But surely this is drain on public funds. If

> as

> > in

> > > this case there is overwhelming and

> irrefutable

> > > evidence that the pair are guilty, then stoot

> > or

> > > hang the evil descipable bastards, it's quick

> > and

> > > cheap. I'm tired of hearing about the rights

> of

> > > the criminal, whatever happened to rights of

> > the

> > > victims and their families fer fecks sake!!!

> > And

> > > don't get me started on care in the

> > community!!!

> >

> > 3/10

> >

> > you didnt manager to get "its PC gorn mad" or

> > "aqnother Stealth tax on motorists" into your

> > comment

> >

> > must try harder

>

>

> So you would slap them on the wrist and tell not

> to be such naughty boys ever again. F**k off

Did anyone say that ?

the threat of violent retribution - state organised or otherwise - does not stop these crimes from happening

[Atila Reincarnate]

blah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>> Did anyone say that ?

>

> the threat of violent retribution - state

> organised or otherwise - does not stop these

> crimes from happening

Right? so we'll do F**k all that will make the world a better place. Until there is evidence which proves beyond ANY reasonable doubt that your argument is 100% spot on I'll take state organised retribution every time thanks. You might want to pass your thoughts on to the mums and dads and the family of those butchered by these bastards, I'm sure they'll take great comfort from them. JEEEEEEEEEZZZZZ. God help us all if anyone of us should ever be in their shoes!!!

[bigbadwolf]

Keef Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> BBW, you say that any punishment is by definition

> revenge. I disagree, I think revenge involves a

> certain emotional content.

Keef It's impartial revenge on behalf of the people. When I crime has been committed no matter how trivial the powers that be such as the Police and the courts have to take into account the example they're setting to the general public. For instance, a man walks into a bank with a gun and threatens to shoot the customers if the cashiers don't hand over the cash. Fortunately the Police arrive in time and arrest the offender. Apart from attempted robbery people have been put in very genuine fear of loosing their lives and loved ones. As a result of having a gun waved in their face they now have to face the psychological effects of the crime. They will also feel angry at this intrusion into their lives that will hinder them in the future. The Police and courts sympathize with them and also want to send out a message anyone thinking of going down the same path as the accused.

The punishment is essentially revenge being dished out to those who intentionally disrupt society and it's rule. O.K, I like to think that the judge isn't sitting there thinking "I want to see you swing from the nearest tree" and that s/he takes everything into account before passing sentence but it is still essentially revenge against the offender if they're convicted.

[Atila Reincarnate]

bigbadwolf Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Keef Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > BBW, you say that any punishment is by

> definition

> > revenge. I disagree, I think revenge involves a

> > certain emotional content.

>

> Keef It's impartial revenge on behalf of the

> people. When I crime has been committed no matter

> how trivial the powers that be such as the Police

> and the courts have to take into account the

> example they're setting to the general public. For

> instance, a man walks into a bank with a gun and

> threatens to shoot the customers if the cashiers

> don't hand over the cash. Fortunately the Police

> arrive in time and arrest the offender. Apart from

> attempted robbery people have been put in very

> genuine fear of loosing their lives and loved

> ones. As a result of having a gun waved in their

> face they now have to face the psychological

> effects of the crime. They will also feel angry at

> this intrusion into their lives that will hinder

> them in the future. The Police and courts

> sympathize with them and also want to send out a

> message anyone thinking of going down the same

> path as the accused.

> The punishment is essentially revenge being dished

> out to those who intentionally disrupt society and

> it's rule. O.K, I like to think that the judge

> isn't sitting there thinking "I want to see you

> swing from the nearest tree" and that s/he takes

> everything into account before passing sentence

> but it is still essentially revenge against the

> offender if they're convicted.

Well said wolfman

[daizie]

but these people have no soul, so whatever anyone does , makes no difference, so kill them .

[bigbadwolf]

They may have no soul in the sense that they couldn't care less about what they've done to another person Daizie but they're still human beings and for a human to loose his liberty/freedom under such conditions that I would like to see put in place for the type of people who inspired this thread would be utterly unbearable.

[Sherwick]

What's wrong with some revenge after the type of crime these guys committed???

Anyway, FWIW I think that the Death Penalty is too quick and agree that life and being let out when you're 80 (so you can see what you've missed) is best as a punishment.

[EDOldie]

No one seems to have talked about what caused these horrific crimes. Why did it happen? According to the accounts I have read the murderers came from a background of violence and were high on drugs and drink when they killed these boys. If there is not a society we have succeeded in acceptance of the fact. But if you believe there is a society it is a continuation of our failure to address violent crime not with punishment or retribution but with understanding.

We can't return to the barbarism of the death penalty we either need to take control or accept that we have none.

[bigbadwolf]

It happened because the cash point swallowed the card they were trying to withdraw money with. They thought the two students were stringing them along so they thought (stoned or not) that they deserved to be stabbed 200 times whereby some of the wounds were inflicted with suck force the blade penetrated the skull. Yes, I agree that drugs seem to be a major factor in this crime and the other violent incidents that preceded it. They were however in a sound enough state of mind to realise that they'd broken the law in that they torched the house the crime took place in. They knew they'd committed an incredibly heinous crime and saw the need to cover their tracks to avoid punishment.

Please don't see this as an attempt at patronising you, it's not. The two young men had family who when confronted what had happened to their sons will have been overcome with a mixture of emotion, one being retribution. I can only guess that 'understanding' as you put it would've been very far from their thoughts, it would've been from mine in that situation. I don't think there is a human being on this earth that upon suffering this kind of tradgedy wouldn't have felt the same towards those that had inflicted the damage.

I don't mean to be rude but I didn't really understand the last two sentences of your first paragraph EDOldie.

[Sherwick]

What precisely is wrong with some form of retribution anyway?

[ClareC]

The Courts decide on punishment not revenge!! Its ridiculous to claim punishment is revenge when there is no personal involvement!