Lordship Lane incident

[Jeremy]

Yes of course it's hard to have sympathy for them, but we're all products of our environment.

[EDmummy]

Not sure why I am bothering but would like to try and raise the intellectual tone a bit because I really care about what is happening to our young people. The cause? Lots of well worn arguments about cause across all sectors interested in trying to stop this cycle of crime, injury and death. There is no magic wand. Young people having children before they have grown up themselves could be a major factor. That is not to point blame at this group - they are very often victims of emotional and other abuse from a young age. It is a very vicious cycle that many can not step off.

Edited for spelling mistake (picked up before someone else does!)

[matthew123]

Horses for courses - some kids need the strong arm of a parent or teacher (and I'm not talking abuse) to keep them under control whilst other's will bow to persuasive talk. There is no golden rule for everyone, never has been, never will be.

Not having a Father figure, young Mother's - that has always existed. The only thing different is lack of discipline and punishment at all age levels. Until we get over it, we will head towards society becoming more lawless.

[canubelieve]

nothing happened on the bus, one of them tried to escape on the bus

[canubelieve]

i saw the knife used! it was not a bottle it was a very large knife that was about 10" long and looked like it was from rambo!

[canubelieve]

i would like to say that for the person who nows the boy that got stabbed, yes he is in a gang as it is not a coincedence he was one of the people stabbed! it WAS a gang related fight. does nobody else think that if they carry a knife they deserve to get injured/ killed by another gang member. it is disgusting that people feel sorry for them. they are all mouth when stuff happens and after try and bring out a sob story or a im scared act and it fools alot of people but i have had experiences with people like this and i can see beyond the lies. to blame it all on the adults is a bit much, yes they are to blame but the kids have a choice, if they are strong minded they can succeed but most of them think its clever to rob, steal and stab people.

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

The lad hangs around in Dulwich Park. Not sure that makes him a paid up member of a gang.

We've heard nothing more, so far.

[oweneth]

Beware, there is a particularly nasty gang operating in east dulwich.

I know that because they mugged me on wednesday night - extremely aggressive and very confident. I was threatend with stabbing if I did not capitulate.

I am hoping they may have been involved in the LL stabbing incident and have, for now, been taken off our streets.

I couldnt care less about them.

[Mark]

sorry to hear that owenrth, please could you give us a description of the gang that mugged you?

[Nero]

I think that London is a only bit less safe that it was but there is a greater degree of selfishness, rudeness and aggression. You can block some of it out, but the constant bad behaviour of children and adults, loutishness, lack of civility etc makes for an unpleasant place to live. I don't think E Dulwich is getting 'worse' but I do think that people are more aware of this lack of manners and are wanting change for the better.

[oweneth]

Mark - They were approx 15-18 years, mixed race or light skinned black. One quite tall and lanky, the others shorter and stockier. One had a green hoody on and he pulled a yellow scarf in front of his face as he moved in.

[canubelieve]

never the less he is in a gang. if he was the only one stabbed fair enough maybe bad luck or mugging gone wrong, but the fact there were 3 others stabbed makes it a bit many for him to be wrong place wrong time im afraid.

[Wombat]

Have to agree with the comments re. people offering sob stories once they're caught for something/ injured. Have yourselves a day in court to listen to some of the utter rubbish that is used come sentencing in an attempt at mitigation.

Lots of people have difficult upbringings and deal with it in different ways but I swear to god you would think we were living in Dickensian London still when it comes to the excuses that are heard in court. Life can be bad, really bad but there's no excuses for a lot of the stuff that goes on.

I'm bored with sympathy for criminals. Seriously. I'm bored with giving people like that chances that they abuse. These people only ask for second chances once they're caught, they'd NEVER think of changing their behaviour before that point. Why waste your time looking for the good in them, use the nice stuff on people and places more deserving.

[Vince]

Really sorry to hear about your mugging oweneth. Can you let us know where it happened? And at what time of night?

[Vince]

Don't worry oweneth, I just read it on the "attempted mugging" thread.

[espelli]

Wombat, Dickensian London is not so far away and many inner city areas have families living in not so dissimilar circumstances.

The poverty trap or whatever you want to call it is real and for many young people, whilst individually they may be against joining the dominant culture where they live, they do not feel it is realistic for them to stand alone. Peer pressure is very strong and can lead to all sorts of extreme behaviour becoming normal.

I agree with you that people are often only contrite and ask for second chances when they are caught. My personal view is that this is not just a problem in low income urban areas with gang crime etc. I think the immense sense of self-importance and entitlement goes across all sections of society. It is expressed differently by different people but is still there.

I was in a shop on LL the other week when a very nicely dressed and well spoken woman demanded service immediately because she was very busy. The shop assistants were clearly dealing with other customers and were aware that a queue was building up. Her loud demands were met - ahead of several others waiting in the shop - and she flounced out disgusted at the lack of customer service. No laws were broken and no-one was injured, but it was anti-social behaviour. A sense that her needs were clearly more important than anyone elses.

It is not far removed from wanting respect at all costs - if respect is all you are in a position to claim it becomes very important. It's all about me.

[jimmy two times]

Does anyone really think that having a teenage mother, or having no father present when growing up, or lack of opportunities blah blah blah blah blah forces a person to pick up a knife and thrust it into another person's body?

[thebeard]

jimmy two times Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Does anyone really think that having a teenage

> mother, or having no father present when growing

> up, or lack of opportunities blah blah blah blah

> blah forces a person to pick up a knife and thrust

> it into another person's body?

It is less likely that the child of a

post teen parent

with the

Father present

and with

opportunities to discover their strengths and abilities and pursue them in their lives.

Probably far far less likely to knife anyone.

But there will always be exceptions.

What should worry all of us is that you or anyone would in all seriousness ask such a question.

And I though these kids were poorly educated and lacking in common?

[eclectic]

Did anyone see the police and the ambulance outside the vale last night about three am this morning? the police had cordoned off about 10 meters of the pavement? after reading about all these muggings, I think we need to somehow act and get the police to patrol the area as a deterrent, as it does seem that one gang is operating here and muggings happening at 9:45pm just after dark is ridiculous, perhaps the police could do an undercover operation and use plain clothes police as bait before this gang begin to terrorise the people of east dulwich.

[Jeremy]

jimmy, wombat, etc... I think you're taking a very simplistic view of the situation. No, these kids are not being "forced" to carry knives, nobody is saying that. But as I said earlier, people are products of their environment, nobody is born "evil", nobody is born a murderer.

So don't you agree that it could be a good idea to take a look at what's happening in their lives, try and figure out why kids are turning out like this? Or would you prefer we just ignored the root cause of the problem?

[canubelieve]

i would just like to say that anybody who thinks or feels that this batch of scum has been let down by society should think about what they say in the future. if you still feel as strongly that they were let down then maybe you should let them live next to you with their knives (maybe guns) and you could give them the guidance in life that they so desperatly deserve or even better you could take them in to your family home! wouldnt you agree that society would be a better place for us all?

[matthew123]

>> people are products of their environment, nobody is born "evil", nobody is born a murderer.

Some people are a product of excuses.

[SeanMacGabhann]

what an extraordinary post canubelieve - combining as it does a misunderstanding of what anyone has said, an order/threat to future posters and a simplicity of thinking which beggars belief

First up - anyone who commits these crimes needs punishing. Simple As. No one is offereing to take them in or look after them

But if we want to stop it happening in the future we have to look at the wider issues. Letting things get worse and worse and sending more and more people to prison ad infintum is a recipe for madness. That is why when some people talk about addresing the way society functions there is talk of looking at root causes. That doesn't mean giving people free passes - it means understanding why some societies generate more problems for themselves than others do. And it ain't about how stiff a prison sentence/introducing a death penalty is

No kid is born with a predilection for stabbing other people - to get to that place a whole bunch of stuff has gone wrong. And you are talking about kids here. They may be street smart and they may be sly and they may be vicious - but they are not fully formed and they have been broken. You can ignore it and keep spending fortunes on prisons and dealing with crime AFTER it happens - or you can try and be intelligent about it

[SeanMacGabhann]

cheap and easy line matthew123 - what does it mean?

You make it sound like life is hard for all of us but only lazy scum with excuses bother to stab people - the rest of us work a bit harder? Surely a bit more complicated than that?

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

You make it sound like life is hard for all of us but only lazy scum with excuses bother to stab people - the rest of us work a bit harder? Surely a bit more complicated than that?

Sean

There is extreme disadvantage in almost every identifiable community but there is only one demographic where knife crime is spiralling out of control.