To woman force off road by coach on Grove Vale (Aug 10th)

[matthew123]

I was walking past Kwik-Fit yesterday when a small van reversed out of Kwik-Fit at maximum speed onto the northbound lane and was about 1 metre from mowing down a stationary cyclist. I think it was a white van, maybe UHL or something, the young driver looked as shocked as anyone that he'd almost killed a woman. Possibly the worst driving I have ever witnessed.

[muffins78]

Granny bowling - oh my god - thats dreadful!! I am going to ask my friend about this although she works for transport police, more in relation to incidences on tubes/trains - see does she know anything... She has told me some really horrid and some really sad stories!! I could say, you'd be surprised at what goes on, but then again, would you be surprised at all!!

I just dont get the mentality of some people, its quite sad!!

[H]

mrs f Wrote:

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> I'm thinking about petitioning Tessa Jowell to get

> The Met to some high-profile traffic enforcement

> in the area. Would anyone care to join me in

> this?

>

> Yep! Definatly, I'm a cylist and am often shocked

> by the lack of cosideration shown by other road

> users, which is terifying considering we are the

> most vunerable road users (padestrians excluded).

>

> I have also had several incidents with Clarkes

> Coaches, one included me nearly being squashed on

> the left hand side (I did NOT cycle down his left

> hand side, he drove around me) as he continued to

> drive to the left with me on the inside on the E&C

> round about (I now take the lovely cycle bypass

> instead). He then blamed me and shouted at me

> (persumably with people in his coach) for cycling

> 'too slowly' (thankfully I took no offence seeing

> as he was 20 + stone) but what a horrific example

> for your buisness to set!

>

> Let me know where to sign the Petition Treetoad,

> anything to make our roads safer is a possitive

> thing...

I'm glad you use the Elephant and Castle bypass now mrs f, I would never in a million years want to cycle around that roundabout and it scares me watching people do it when I'm on the bus going around there. I would encourage more people to use it, it may take a tiny bit longer but you are more likely to arrive at your destination unscathed.

[Ladymuck]

H Wrote:

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> I'm glad you use the Elephant and Castle bypass

> now mrs f, I would never in a million years want

> to cycle around that roundabout and it scares me

> watching people do it when I'm on the bus going

> around there. I would encourage more people to

> use it, it may take a tiny bit longer but you are

> more likely to arrive at your destination

> unscathed.

I (madly) STILL go around that double roundabout on my bike. I did try to use the by-pass once...but I ended up in the OLD KENT ROAD, which was even scarier (to my mind)...whether or not I took a wrong turn I don't know, but I've never risked it again.

[Ladymuck]

treetoad Wrote:

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I'm thinking about petitioning

> Tessa Jowell to get The Met to some high-profile

> traffic enforcement in the area. Would anyone

> care to join me in this?

I too would sign your petition treetoad. I could probably also get others to do so. Feel free to PM me about this.

[Steady Eddy]

-

[Ladymuck]

Steady Eddy Wrote:

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> Hello treetoad, and all witnesses of incidences.

>

> I felt I needed to write as I am concerned that

> what you have witnessed has not been reported to

> the police. The lady that you witnessed falling

> off her bike may have reported it to the police

> and your contact with them would help her case.

> The police need witnesses to be able to do

> productive investigations. You probably will be

> able to describe what the driver looked like,

> along with pin pointing him at the scene and also

> you have his registration number, which is like

> gold dust to the police.

>

> It is also important to record such incidences

> with the police as their statistics of such cases

> are used by government and the police for

> decisions of what needs to be focused on as

> priority and how to tackle certain incidences that

> are continually reoccuring. Statistics are

> actually showing that cycle accidents have fallen

> over the past year, but the results are only

> accurated if people report any incidences, even if

> the person is ok. Even near misses should be

> reported, especially if poor driving is the cause

> of the near miss, so these statistics can be used

> effectively.

>

> There are allocated safer neighbourhoods teams

> (SNT) in all wards, which deal with cases like

> this, but to deal with them they need to hear

> about them. They are not mind readers.

>

> I have reported a couple of incidences regarding

> dangerous driving by a public bus and a people

> carrier on Grove Vale. It would be good if all

> that witness any kind of poor driving or

> incidences to report them to the safer

> neighbourhoods teams. That is what they are there

> for, they are waiting for calls like this so they

> have envidence that shows the severity of it so to

> clamp down on such behaviour and perhaps then save

> more lives by the publics' good deed. (9 cyclists

> aready have died this year).

>

> There seems to be a lot of people that have

> witnessed poor driving by a particular company. If

> you all reported it to the safer neighbourhoods

> teams then the severity of it will definately be

> realised and then dealt with.

>

> The more people that report, the stronger the

> voice of the public becomes for the teams to gain

> the resources to tackle such cases. My voice alone

> reporting such incidences will not be as strongly

> heard as if you all get on your computers and

> email the SNT teams too. How about it folks. All

> they need is the date of the incident, the time of

> day, description of vehicle and of what happened,

> if possible, description of driver.

>

> Well done for writing to the company, and for your

> efforts to trace the lady. The best thing you can

> do for her is to report it to the safer

> neighbourhoods team.

>

> Where you describe the incident is the ward that I

> have reported to, which is the South Camberwell

> SNT. their email address is

> [email protected], or you can call

> them on 0208 721 2448. They are a team of six

> officers that purely focus of their ward, but also

> work with other wards in clamping down of certain

> incidences. They are not there 24/7 but should

> respond to your email or phone message. It's best

> to give all the details of the incident in your

> email or phone call message so to save them time

> in recording, and pursuing your case.

>

> there is also the main non-emergency number - 0300

> 123 1212 - which is the new number for recording

> non-emergency cases, if you prefer to do it via

> the old fashioned route, but remember in an

> emergency always call 999, if the accident needs

> imediate attention, as these teams are not

> emergency response teams.

>

> Thanks for listening, hope by you all reporting

> will then support my own pursuit in making the

> SNTs aware of such poor driving in our area.

>

> if you are unsure of your local SNT look at their

> website, www.met.police.uk where you can check for

> your local team.

>

> here's to happy and safe cycling for all

>

> :)-D

Thanks for that Steady Eddy.

[mrs f]

"I (madly) STILL go around that double roundabout on my bike. I did try to use the by-pass once...but I ended up in the OLD KENT ROAD, which was even scarier (to my mind)...whether or not I took a wrong turn I don't know, but I've never risked it again."

Oh no! Once you have got the route sorted then it is super easy.... So much nicer than going round the roundabout... I feel far, far less stressed/worried/anxious/frightened (all the emotions that one goes through on this roundabout) now I do not go round it. Perhaps have a look on a map and go round it when you have a bit of time, most of it is marked on the road but it can be a little confusing at first..... well worth it I can assure you!

Anyway I deviate.... We should all report our road incidents so as to increase the profile of cyclist incidents and create more awarenes and hopefullly then more careful and respectful drivers.... here's hoping anyway!

[mrs f]

Oh! and "This year, funding for cycling will no longer be allocated centrally by the mayor, with each borough setting aside a portion of its own transport budget. " see the link below from LCC

http://www.lcc.org.uk/index.asp?Pageid=1466

So basically we all need to ask Southwark what they are proposing to do and to encourage them to feature cyclist's safty highly this coming year...

[Loz]

Good grief - I hate going around E&C in a car. If you go around it on a bike when there is a perfectly good alternative then you're mad. It's all very well asking for car drivers to look out for bikes more, but if you aren't willing to look after yourself...

[mrs f]

Loz, there is no design fault that means why E&C shouldn't be safe for all road users. It is inconsiderate/ lazy/ aggresive/ uaware drivers who make it unsafe for cyclists.

There are two trains of thoughs here, either avoid altogether or safty in numbers. I wish we had a proper cycling culture in the UK to be able to have safety in numbers but we don't. We have rather a negative view of cyclists in this country and that allowed drivers to behave aggresively towards them. Pesonally I chose to avoid the roundabout but I respect those who choose to go through it, if it highlights to one car driver that cyclists are proper road users then it is benifit to many many more.... cyclists should be able to use major intersections without feering their lives, why should they be inconvenienced to go round the back streets just because of lack of proper road saftey awarenes...

[Loz]

I disagree Mrs F - the E&C roundabout is an appalling design. As I said, even in a car it's a pretty scary experience. You couldn't pay me enough money to go around it on a motorbike, much less a bicycle.

Personally I think that, yes, there are some pretty awful drivers out there with some pretty awful attitudes towards cyclists. Conversely, there are some pretty awful cyclists that think that they have the right to jump red lights, cycle over pavements, pass dangerously and illegally, go the wrong way down one-way streets and zip through stationary traffic (to the danger of pedestrians) - indeed a general lack of road safety awareness themselves. The Highway Code applies to everyone.

On the other hand there are good cyclist and good drivers. Probably in the majority in both cases.

I'm going to be controversial and say cyclists should be fearful of their lives. Why? Because one mistake by either them or someone else and they are probably dead. Saying that you "respect those who choose to go through [the E&C roundabout], if it highlights to one car driver that cyclists are proper road users then it is benefit to many many more" is dangerous. We've already had one fatality there recently. Is there a family out there mourning a loved one? Yes. Have things improved? No? In your own words "once you have got the route sorted then it is super easy.... So much nicer than going round the roundabout." Why on earth would you not try to encourage every cyclist to take the safe "super easy" route that has been provided especially for cyclists?? For some cheap "cyclists rights" political point? How many deaths does it need before that becomes a bad idea?

My father taught me to 'drive defensively' - that is, assume everyone else is an idiot who is about to do something you don't expect. All road users should do this.

[Ladymuck]

Loz Wrote:

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If

> you go around it on a bike when there is a

> perfectly good alternative then you're mad.

As alluded to above, the alternative is certainly not "perfectly good". The fact that I ended up on the very fast (a lot faster than the E & C R/A) Old Kent Road demonstrates this.

It's

> all very well asking for car drivers to look out

> for bikes more, but if you aren't willing to look

> after yourself...

I can only assume that you do not cycle on London's busy roads yourself. It's not a matter of not being "willing to look after yourself"...but a matter of cyclists (who, incidentally, have every right to SHARE the roads with other road users) who (in the absence of adequate provision for cyclists) have little choice BUT to use the poor infrastructure in place. This problem is further compounded by our legislature which provides that, in the event of injury etc., the burden of proof is on the cyclist. In other European countries this is not the case. I.e. liability is STRICT - i.e. against the driver, which effectively means that it is for the DRIVER to prove that S/HE WASN'T negligent. As a result of this, drivers abroad treat cyclists with a greater deal of respect. It is not a question of "us and them", but rather - cyclists are EXPECTED on the roads, and (as vulnerable road users) are accorded the extra care that they warrant. May I suggest that you cycle around London just for ONE day...only THEN will you appreciate how negatively drivers view the presence of cyclists on the road. ONE day.

I have been sworn at, spat at, have had ashtrays full of cig. butts thrown at me, half drunk bottle of drink lunged at me, and have been forced off the road into railings or the pavement by drivers and/or their passengers. I have also been forced to do emergency stops on the E & C roundabout, because drivers have refused to stop at the roundabout purely because I was a cyclist (unlikely they would have acted the same way if I had been driving a BMW e.g.). I have been "bumped" at traffic lights and thrown to the ground because I didn't move off in double quick time, and I have been knocked off my bike 3 times now. Once, by an MPV driven by a mum doing the school run who decided to cut in front of me to turn left without due care and attention, secondly by a taxi-driver who pulled up AT A GREEN SET OF LIGHTS to let out a passenger (passenger didn't see me), and thirdly by a driver who decided to open his passenger car door without looking in his mirror. I am an experienced cyclist...have undertaken cycling instruction and assertive cycle training, cycle according to the Highway Code (yes, I do not jump red lights, and yes, I stop at zebra crossings), I have third party insurance in the unfortunate event that should I be the cause of an accident the aggrieved has the ability to make a successful claim against me, AND my bike is registered (a bit like having a number plate) so that I may be traced. I don't believe I can do any more.

Moreover, my form of transport does not contribute to noise/environmental pollution, keeps me fit and healthy (i.e. less of a burden on the NHS), and reduces the amount of heavy traffic on the road (ironically making it easier for drivers to go faster).

Enough said - I think.

[Sandperson]

Woo! Go Lady Muck!

I too have third party insurance through British Cycling membership, I don't jump reds and i stop at ped crossings. I ride round one E&C roundabout in the morning and both in the evening and I don't see why I should have to pick through the back streets of the E&C just to make car drivers lives a little easier (I drive a car too btw but very rarely). Taking back streets and underpasses adds to the ghettoisation of cyclcists and I refuse to be a part of it. I put up with abuse from other road users and I have to deal with dangerously potholed roads which aren't created by my skinny tyres but by cars.

[Loz]

I don't see why I should have to pick through the back streets of the E&C just to make car drivers lives a little easier

You misunderstand me; but I suspect you did it on purpose.

I'm not suggesting you use the specially provided cycleways to make car drivers lives easier, I'm suggesting you use them because it lowers your chances of dying.

But I more than happy for you to cycle round the E&C roundabout. Please do. Make it hobby. It changes my life not one iota - I mostly go around it on a bus.

Sometimes I wonder I cyclists if keep their balance by having a chip on both shoulders...

[Sandperson]

I don't have chips! Much too fattening. Something like a breadstick on each shoulder. :))

[Loz]

Well, as long as it's not a stick of celery. That would be silly. :)

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

Not if you're a Chelsea fan!

[Ladymuck]

Sandperson Wrote:

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> I don't have chips! Much too fattening. Something

> like a breadstick on each shoulder. :))

And EVEN if Sandperson DID have CHIPS, the calories would soon be burnt off from cycling away at lightning speed from MPVs, lorries, buses and the like leaving him/her "chip-free" in no time;-).

[mlteenie]

I have just found this thread and am shocked (but maybe not that shocked...) to see how many other cyclists have felt themselves to be in a dangerous postion regarding Clarkes coaches in this area.

They always race around in very powerful buses and have no regard for cyclists. Once I was forced out of the traffic stream on Grove Vale near Blackbird. I caught up with the driver at Denmark Hill station and had a go. Didn't do much else, though. He basically swore at me and said I was 'in the way' or something. i.e. I wasn't travelling a 30mph. Tossers. Something must be done.

[cmacki]

I have forwarded this thread to [email protected]. I recommend anyone else who thinks clarkes should do something about their drivers do the same.

[toomuchchocolate]

i've just read this too and am not at all surprised. i used to be a cyclist and now i ride a scooter - carefully and within the rules of the law. I have the same experience of white vans, coaches (including Clarkes) etc as cyclists. i've been tailgated (every day when i rode a slower scooter), i've been undertaken, overtaken within inches, had people deliberately swerve into my path (apparently that's funny??)....all usually because i haven't been riding fast enough for the drivers....then of course i would overtake them at the next lights! This would give me the opportunity to note the company name on the side of the vehicle...then i'd spend the rest of my journey desperately trying to remember the numberplate. It was great stress relief to phone each company and drop their dangerous drivers in the doo-doo with the bosses. One time i even had flowers, chocolates and a card apologising for the drivers behaviour - as well as assurance that he had been severely disciplined (i got the impression he was sacked)...but then the driver explicitly shouted at me that i hadn't been riding fast enough and if i didn't get out of his way he'd run me over and kill me. (nice). All things i'm sure my one year old son would appreciate.

[Karrie]

[Deleted] Safety reasons

[PinarelloFan]

Dangerous or unsafe driving can also be reported via the Met Police's Roadsafe website:

http://www.met.police.uk/roadsafelondon/

[sillywoman]

. . . . . and some people still wonder why kids & can cycle on the pavement?