Memorials

[PeckhamRose]

Eton Trifles.

[ruffers]

ruffers Wrote:

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> Brendan Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> >... Humans are

> > compelled to make these gestures when we grieve

> > even though we are all too aware of their

> ultimate

> > futility. .

>

> What I find interesting is that British humans at

> least, can't speak for the rest, didn't appear to

> be compelled to make these particular gestures

> until relatively recently.

I'm talking about the rise of this in the last 20 years or so, not 60 though.

[thexwinglessxbird]

giggirl Wrote:

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> OMG Alexander McQueen is dead at 40. A great

> talent snuffed out. I shall style myself as my

> own personal memorial tomorrow - McQueen head to

> foot.

As have I...

[giggirl]

Fabulous. What are you wearing? I've gone with houndstooth.

[Marmora Man]

James,

Can we ask the council to clear up / remove the memorial at the Peckham Rye / East Dulwich Road crossroads. It is now over three months since the accident and sad death of a child. The flowers have faded, the poems are smudged. I think it is time to clear up - some others have differing feelings but, overall, most seem to agree that there should be a time limit on such shrines.

Hi Marmora Man, reetpetite,

I've not felt comfortable replying before. Still feel very raw thinking about this collission and death.

Shrivelled up flowers are rather evocative of a life tragically taken.

The site is in Peckham Rye ward. I don't think it appropriate for me to request them to be removed and personally I would'nt be inclined for removal.

MM for once I am ashamed to be associated with this forum. The idea of brushing away that poor child's memorial is so repellant as to render one speechless. It's the kind of nimbysm that non ed forumites erroneously think might typify this forum. Rather than attack Barber for refusing to send in the bin men, I suggest you hang your head in shame. Really shocking.

I don't hang my head in shame.

I am disappointed that Councillor Barber feels unable to make a decision, and that others seem to feel that by criticising a tatty display of rotting flowers, soggy teddy bears and illegible notes I am somehow unfeeling. I am raising, as I have done before, a reasonable query and criticism. The sense of this particular thread is, broadly, in favour of a time limit and a clear up. It's not nimbyism - it's about the value of a tatty display.

The "Dianafication" of grief is something I neither understand or hold with. Grief, I believe, is more usually a private and very intense matter; not for public display. The flowers I referred to are not the memorial or shrine - they mark the site of the accident.

The graveyard or cemetery is a more fitting place for permament memorials, while for the family - holding the collective memory of the dead child is probably more meaningful and fitting than a tired collection of dead flowers tied to a lampost.

The link to the Brake organisation's guidelines was helpful - tho' even there I consider they bend over too far in trying to be sensitive to everyone's needs and to avoid giving offence. Sometimes a robust response at the right time is the correct thing to do.

I believe it is the council's duty to make contact with the relatives after about three months and ask them if they have any desire to maintain the flowers. If they wish to - then it should look appropriate. If they no longer feel it's needed it can be cleared away.

[Narnia]

MM, if you feel so strongly about it why don't you clear it up? I doubt you'd be breaking any written law.

[ratty]

Over the weekend, my wife said exactly the same thing as MM is saying. We decided however that if we went to take down the flowers, some oversensitive type would take offence and accuse us of being unfeeling (or worse).

How a load of dried up dead flowers, soggy rain soaked teddy bears and a mush of paper is a fitting tribute to a life tragically lost is beyond me. Would I want a loved one to be "remembered" by this compost? No!

Not often I agree with MM! :)

[legalbeagle]

I'm not sure it's fair to criticise Councillor Barber in this instance. It seems that no laws are being broken, or rules for which he is responsible, in which case it isn't really a matter for him or the Council. And in a personal capacity he has said he is uncomfortable about interfering with these displays. What more can/should he do?

I also think that grief takes many forms. Not everyone feels it in such a public way, I agree, but I'm not sure it's a question of right or wrong. Just different. I can't begin to imagine how I would feel if I saw a child die, much less cope with that happening to my own. I'd like to think that people would give me the space to express my grief in whatever way I needed. And if I felt the need to make a shrine I think I'd find it unbelievably painful to be told to remove it before I was ready. And I'd like to think that that would count ahead of what other people, who weren't in the pain I was in, might privately feel about it. A tatty display has no value other than that accorded to it by those who put it there. And if it helps them, in even the tiniest way, to cope with their pain, then I'm for leaving it where it is.

[Mark]

I've had this discussion with my better half too, and should I be killed and a flowers laid where I fell, the instructions are to remove then when they're dead. I agree with MM, I feel a pile of long dead flowers at the scene of an accident just says "they should be cleared because they're a pile of dead flowers but it's an awkward situation so no one wants to do it".

Perhaps replacing them with a bunch of fresh ones would be a simple, respectable solution.

[katie1997]

MarmoraMan, I tend to agree with you that grief is a private affair and I don't understand "Dianafication" either.

With roadside memorials its difficult to address whether to 'keep' them or not as they are usually displayed following a tragic accident, one that members of the public have likely witnessed. Lots to consider on whether its more dignified to the memory of that person to leave their memorial to ruin (in my opinion, its not) or to respectfully remove it after an appropriate (again, subjective) amount of time? Where possible, contacting the immediate relatives for their thoughts is probably the best way to deal with it (as you mention above).

My father died in a road accident when I was very young, I don't think that these types of public memorials were prevalent then. My mum couldn't go to the funeral and I am certain would have less liked to see any flowers/reminders at the place where he died (and I feel the same).

[Marmora Man]

ratty Wrote:

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Not often I agree with MM! :)

I agree - nice to be on the same side of an issue for once!

[brum]

In the scheme of things, does it really matter? A few dead flowers tied to a lampost. So what? It's not as if they affect anyone. The fact that they are there tells people that someone died there, probably in an accident that was preventable. If it makes just one person adjust their driving, or be more careful when crossing the road, then I say it's a good thing. Leave them be.

[edcam]

It's a tricky subject. I don't blame James Barber for not wanting to interfere in another ward over such a sensitive issue. There is something very depressing about dead flowers and soggy teddy bears. However, I have to say that both as a driver and as a pesestrian, when I see thse memorials it does act as a reminder about safety. If it helps to prevent further accidents, then it can't be a bad thing. That said, there should really be a time limit, perhaps a month after the accident?

[Michael Palaeologus]

The fact that any of us cannot understand why other people grieve in a particular given way is surely irrelevant? Some grieve in private and quietly, some grieve in public and obviously. Shouldnt we just respect the fact that they are grieving and let them get on with it? Public expressions of grief may be knew to us buttoned up Brits - but not in other cultures and we are increasingly and positively infuenced by other cultures.

How long a memorial is allowed to stay is tricky, but once the flowers are dead then removing them seems reasonable as a bunch of dead flowers and tatty sticky-tape dont make much of a memorial.

[ruffers]

Agreed, if anything leaving it there once it's rotten and tatty demeans the memory, in my eye anyway.

[Yoink]

First post as a long term lurker. It is absolutely appalling that anyone could question whether a memorial should still be displayed because flowers are dead or cos it happened x amount of time ago. It's an eyesore is it? What an absolute crock of s**t.

I can't believe people actually take time out of their day to make an issue out of this. Pathetic beyond words. The grieving process is different for everyone and if what's tied to that lampost gives any of the deceased 12 year old's friends or family a crumb of comfort, then it is worthwhile.

Mamora man - shame on you. Ratty - I'd take a look at your relationship if you and the wife are spending your weekends discussing removing memorial flowers on a lampost.

[jenny1840]

Everest is covered in them, loads of Brits died up there, you should see the state of some of the memorials , dreadful. so how long is a memorial allowed to stay ? a long bleeding time.

and this ...worth logging on for once i would say

"I'd take a look at your relationship if you and the wife are spending your weekends discussing removing memorial flowers on a lampost."

post of the millennium.

[ratty]

Hmmmmm thanks for the relationship advise. Just think it is sad that the memorial looks so tatty now. Not IMO abfitting tribute to the loss of a life.

Yoink Wrote:

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> First post as a long term lurker. It is absolutely

> appalling that anyone could question whether a

> memorial should still be displayed because flowers

> are dead or cos it happened x amount of time ago.

> It's an eyesore is it? What an absolute crock of

> s**t.

>

> I can't believe people actually take time out of

> their day to make an issue out of this. Pathetic

> beyond words. The grieving process is different

> for everyone and if what's tied to that lampost

> gives any of the deceased 12 year old's friends or

> family a crumb of comfort, then it is worthwhile.

>

>

> Mamora man - shame on you. Ratty - I'd take a look

> at your relationship if you and the wife are

> spending your weekends discussing removing

> memorial flowers on a lampost.

[ruffers]

ratty Wrote:

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> Hmmmmm thanks for the relationship advise. Just

> think it is sad that the memorial looks so tatty

> now. Not IMO abfitting tribute to the loss of a

> life.

>

Exactly, when it was first there my response was being touched that so many people appeared to have been effected and gone out of their way, it seemed fitting. Now, to put it bluntly, it looks like people did what they did and now can't be bothered to maintain it. The fact it's a mess seems if anything disrespectful. And for the avoidance of doubt I'm talking impressions here.

That's the grounds for my feeling it should be tidied up Yoink, and re-reading the thread I think it is for most on here more than "it's an eyesore".

[Narnia]

I think if any of the friends/family of the deceased were if the area they would look after it and not leave it as it is. They probably have a grave to look after.

[thebestnameshavegone]

When I grieve I do so properly, and these oiky testaments to broken dreams and gauche sentimentality should be disposed of.

I lie awake for hours on end thinking about these unsightly carbunkles.

[????]

Your first line was almost Auden like there thebestnames

[Marmora Man]

As the OP may I summarise what I see as the majority position?

1. The initial reaction and creation of a roadside shrine is understandable, has merit as both a memorial and a reminder of someone's death.

2. It is recognised that creating and maintaining the memorial can help family and friends cope with their grief. However, not everyone would wish to remember their family or friends in this manner.

3. That the grave is probably the best place to establish a permanent memorial.

4. That if the shrine becomes a soggy mess of dead flowers, rotting teddy bears and smudged poems it is disrespectful to the memory of the victim rather than a celebration of their life.

5. That no one wishes to offend family or friends of the victim but that, on the whole, there should be a natural point at which the shrine can be removed - particularly if it is not being maintained.

6. That the memorial at the crossroads Peckham Rye and East Dulwich Road is now in such a state that it should be tidied away.

Overall approximately 2/3 of posts would subscribe to the points 1 - 6 above. I intend to ask the Council to take note.

[thebestnameshavegone]

???? Wrote:

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> Your first line was almost Auden like there

> thebestnames

Well spotted - it's from the famous 'lost stanza' of Funeral Blues ; )

[PeckhamRose]

Just to add that tonight 7th July 2010 at 9pm on BBC2 is a documentary about this subject.

In Loving Memory.

About roadside memorials.